FULL TRANSCRIPT – Season 2, Episode 63

Welcome to another episode of the exEXPERTS DIVORCE etc… Podcast where we give you all kinds of information and tips on everything divorce. Why? We’ve lived it, so we get it! We’re T.H. & Jessica.

T.H.: Hi everyone. Welcome to our podcast today. We are thrilled to have Abby Rosmarin. She’s an attorney and therapist, and I found Abby, not walking down the street because we’re in COVID-land, but through some other amazing women. That’s the power of networking and reaching out and connecting with others. She really helps people going through a change in conflict, and so we are going to talk about that, specifically recognizing and reconciling where you are in your life and in your mind and in your place and should you move forward or are you good where you are and kind of digging deeper on that. Welcome to our podcast today.

Jessica: Thanks for being here Abby.

Abby: Thanks for having me. It’s really exciting to participate in your venture, so I’m loving this.

Jessica: Thank you.

T.H.: Let’s start from there. I mean, I guess of course when you go through a divorce, well, maybe it’s not of course, but for me, I definitely started looking at myself a little bit more than pointing fingers all the time. I had very low confidence in terms of mothering, being a friend, and being a person. I almost didn’t recognize myself. Take us through all this. You have an awesome dual perspective being an attorney by trade and also a therapist by trade. I’m interested to hear what you have to say.

Jessica: Yeah, because it seems like where you’re coming from is so much deeper because you’re not just one or the other, so your insight is going to be fascinating.

Abby: Okay, well, thanks. I just want to make sure, you’re asking me how do you take what you want to do and make it something that is aligned with what you are possibly able to do and also feel good about? Is that sort of–?

T.H.:  Right. And also based on where you are. Like, I could dream about a lot of things, but if I was still in conflict with myself, that dream is further and further away, right?

Abby: Yeah. A lot of this comes down to we each have our own temperament, we each have our own worldview, we each have our own way that we were raised, and we each have our own allocation of values as to what matters to us. Each of us is different and there are lots of reasons for that as I’m sure you will both know. What you want to do has to first go to what is your capacity to do that, to conceptualize it, and to do it in the moment. You might have an idea of what you want to be henceforth, but you might not have all the skills or the support to be able to get there today. One first big takeaway is assessment, assessment in relation to what you want, what you’re capable of doing, and understanding that it’s a process and not an event. People very rare–Yeah, Jessica?

Jessica: Well, I was going to say how does someone even start that assessment? How does someone know what to do in order to facilitate that assessment for themselves?

Abby: Okay, so there are different types of assessments. There’s the assessment of what you are able to do as a person in the world like what is your temperament?  What is your skill base? What is your community support? How do you handle change, which is what divorce is all about. What are your feelings now, and what are your judgments about yourself? That’s much more on the self-insight realm and also the environmental realm of what you have as resources to help you get there. We can go both ways, right? Then on the legal realm, there is what do I expect to get if I have to fight for what I want in a particular framework, the legal framework? How are my expectations going to be managed? And why am I fighting for the thing I’m fighting for? Am I fighting for the thing I’m fighting for to win and I don’t really care about the outcome, and I just want to win? Or am I fighting because the outcome is so very, very important to me, that I’ll do anything to get that outcome because I think it’s important to me and I think it’s important to my children?

Jessica: I’m curious, in your experience, percentage ballpark, you would say are fighting for the thing just for the sheer sake of fighting for the thing?

Abby: Oh. I am a partner at a law firm and I mostly work as a mediator, so I’m working with people who are looking for a collaborative or compromise resolution. All my partners litigate, and a lot of the associates litigate, and they also do collaborative and mediation. For my work with people, I am asking them to come to a mutual resolution, but I am highly aware that some people are unable to do that in conflict and that it is safer for them not to do it that way. People have different conflict styles. We all show up in a particular moment with a particular conflict style on anything, and they all are important to access. But depending on the circumstance, you could have someone–so the realm is you could avoid the conflict, that’s very powerful in a lot of situations. You could accommodate, you could be competitive, which is sort of the win/lose, right? You could compromise, which is you each get 50%, and we both end up unhappy. And you can have the collaborative where we look at an interest-based understanding of what would be best for everything that matters to us. We find a way to achieve that by basically looking at the pie and expanding the pie. That’s the sort of technical term. I could explain all those, but your conflict style shows up.

Jessica: Yeah, no, but right, I’m just curious. I just think it’d be almost like a fun fact, like 50% of people who go in that are fighting over the china or that painting. They’re like, “I don’t even like that shit”, but they’re going to fight for it just so the ex doesn’t get it. I’m just curious is there some kind of a range that you can kind of guesstimate what the percentage of that is? Is it more than 50% that are fighting just for the sake of fighting for it or is it less than that? I mean, yes, there are going to be people who are going to negotiate at a certain point, but I don’t know.

Abby: Yeah, so I don’t have a number, but I do have a number that is more likely that people who are litigating are forced, even if they don’t want to, to be in a win/lose way of negotiating. Because when you’re litigating, most of the time, not every time, for me to win requires you to lose. There are some times where we split the difference, but often, it’s a win/lose dynamic. I’ll tell you a story and maybe this helps you understand this. I had clients that were in mediation and they came to me and they were very proud of themselves. They came to me the first time and they said, “We have everything figured out. We just need you to write this up.” [Yep, I’ve been there]. Okay. We went through a bunch of different things and yes, indeed, they had 99.9% of the things done, but they didn’t have done one rug that they bought in Marrakech 20 years ago. We spent a very, very long time discussing that rug, a very long time, a very heated long time discussing that rug. They had figured out custody, child support, and lots of other things. Not the rug. The reason why I’m saying this is because is it about the rug? Or is it about what those feelings are underneath the rug? Is it about–?

T.H.: They’re attached to the rug.

Jessica: Who got the rug?

Abby: Well, it’s not about–Well, before I tell you who got the rug, it’s about how did they manage. If they figured out the rug, then they’d figure out their divorce.

Jessica: You think that’s what it was?

Abby: Well, I know that’s what it was, because–I mean, I do, not because I’m so smart, but because it took us a long time, thank god I’m a therapist, to unpack what the meaning around this rug is. How could you figure out custody for your children and child support and you, you know–

T.H.: So that was the last piece that had to get done in order to move forward and they were–

Abby: We did it and we did a lot of work around what does change mean because this would be the end. This is the end of their negotiating related to their marriage. But when they began to realize that it’s not the end, I mean, this is a mediated couple, this is not a litigated couple. When they begin to realize, no, this is not the end, but this is the beginning, this is the beginning of a new configuration of our family and our relationship, it was much easier to figure out what to do with the rug. They saw the rug as their list. It’s like check, check, check. Oh my god, we’re done. And that was that. Back to your question of–sorry, Jessica, what?

Jessica: No, no, go ahead. You’ve got it.

Abby: No, no, I was just saying back to your question of how many people want to win just to win. Well, there are lots of people who like to win just to win. I don’t know the percentage. I don’t think anybody does, but I do know that the modality that people pick to problem solve kind of also reflects the temperament of the people involved in the dispute in some way, or the both of them together. Sometimes there’s one person who would want to cooperate and the other person is absolutely not going to. You can’t. You have to bring both people to the table.

T.H.: How do you do that? How do you bring someone who’s resistant, obviously, physically to the table, but also to have their mindset ready to talk? How do you do that?

Abby: I work with people not as a mediator but as a conflict coach when somebody won’t come to the table, but they’re still engaged in a lot of conflict. One way to do that is to first understand them. I mean, not even one way, the most basic thing is to understand them and to understand why. Why they don’t want to collaborate or cooperate? What is it?

T.H.: Right. What’s the problem?

Abby: There’s a range of things and you’re going to hear from me that I’m kind of annoying because there’s nothing that’s like the magic bullet, because people are people and they show up with different motivations and needs and capacities.

Jessica: We don’t think that’s annoying. I mean, we ask the questions, because we know what people listening are asking, but I think it’s so important for them to hear it. Like, okay, well, there isn’t a one size fits all answer to everything, but we can’t not ask because that’s when people at home are like, “Why didn’t they ask that?”

Abby: Yeah, no, I know. That’s true, right. And I’d ask the same questions. Did you ask why? Well, sometimes there’s a power and control issue, which is I can’t come to the table because of my safety. I mean, personal, psychic, emotional safety, that if I do anything to show any sort of vulnerability in any way, I will be unsafe. That’s sort of one tranche that you go down and you always assess for. Other times people are concerned, it’s not a safety concern, that they won’t have the right voice to speak up as to what they want. Often, relationships break down because somebody hasn’t had the voice to speak up and then there are some dynamics that happen in the relationship that pull people further and further apart. Sometimes I hear people saying to me, “Yeah, we just drifted apart. We don’t even know. It was like we barely fought. We’re just not on the same plane.”

T.H.: Even speak. [Right] I mean, lack of communication. I do recall a talk about different styles and also the way you interpret it. My kids, my oldest would say, “I remember you guys fighting all the time.” We never fought, not in a way that you could hear. It was no speaking, no communication, and there was no yelling. It was silent. That was fighting, but in my mind, fighting was yelling and screaming, and it wasn’t. It was amazing to me her perspective was so different from where I was in my head. It’s like, well, at least we didn’t fight in front of each other. We’re fighting all the time.

Jessica: Or she’s created a narrative to go along with the fact that you got divorced in order for her to be able to make sense of it herself. Like, my mother remembers shit that never happened. She–

T.H.: It could be, but she was young and they’re honest.

Jessica: But she may have just felt the tension. You might be right, it might be that she remembers you fighting all the time, but what it really was, was the palpable tension in the air that maybe made her uncomfortable and gave her the perception that there was fighting going on even if she didn’t hear you guys yelling.

T.H.: But when you’re talking about coming to the table, I don’t know how that ever would have happened. My divorce was four years long. We were on the path of litigation. We settled that morning of court that we were supposed to start litigating. We had been in front of a panel of lawyers, we had three judges, and we had a mediator, a retired judge. Everyone was like, “I can’t. There’s nothing. If you both don’t come together, it’s just not happening.” That was really my question. How do you make that happen?  Are those the ones, the small percentage that ends up litigating, because it’s just a power struggle all the time?

Abby: Sometimes people get caught in dynamics that they wish they could get out of and they can’t. Sometimes there are things that come about that–there’s a couple of cases I can think of where as much as the couple hated each other, they hated spending money on their professionals. They were like, we’re going to join. At least they have a common enemy. But for you, it sounds so heartbreaking, because nobody understands. You never had, in that experience, somebody to understand you. Nobody really understood what it was like for you to have to be in this process, to get maybe your voice heard, or get what you needed done, or to be in such intractable conflict with someone who didn’t care about what you said and vice versa maybe, also by the way. It could be vice versa.

T.H.: I mean, I feel like I got sucked into this vacuum, literally in a tube of a vacuum and just going along the way like, now you’ve got to go here, now you got to meet him, now you’ve got to sit here, and you’ve got to go there. It wasn’t until the very last minute like you’re talking about the rug. Now is your day. Okay, now negotiate. Okay, now the rugs done. We’re over. That last little step it’s a long way to get there. It’s hard. As a conflict coach, I imagine that every story is completely different, every person is different, every relationship is different, but what’s your advice that you give to people who are in conflict like that? What can they do to make it a little bit easier on themselves?

Abby: It’s hard to hear this, but people can always settle.

T.H.: Right. It’s true. When you say settle, what do you mean?

Abby: People can always stop. Each person always has the choice to stop the relationship in that way, the fight around the thing. You always have a choice. It’s just a matter of at what cost or how you reframe the narrative around why you’re doing it so that you feel that you’re still maybe empowered, maybe that’s one of the things that you needed, or treated fairly, or that if you were a strict economist, you do a cost-benefit analysis. It’s costing me this much, and it’s taking up this much energy, and they might do a spreadsheet on it, right?

T.H.: Right. Right. Right.

Abby: Because people can always settle, so the question is why aren’t you today? What might you do tomorrow? How can you position yourself to maybe get a better settlement? When your life is no longer in your control, there’s always a way to bring it back into your control. There is.

T.H.: Yeah, that’s the other thing. My advice would be to make sure you check in with yourself every day, and you ask the questions, and you speak up, because of the fear factor, you have all these people around you, the fear could silence you. If you don’t have a conflict coach, who’s also an attorney, who’s also a therapist, to talk to, to get your voice out there and not sound like an idiot, all of that is going on when you’re going through a divorce.

Abby: You have to be in your head and you have to be in your heart. Your head, your sort of quantitative analysis has to be within your ability. There are many things in this sphere to make sure that you can make a choice that you’re able to make. And that’s another thing, I’m not saying you fly out there and you settle because you don’t like conflict. I’m saying you make a choice based on you might need support systems, you might need therapy to go there, you might need a way of having that settlement occur that will make you feel different. There are many places to consider, and then once you have figured that out, then there’s a plan, which always gets readjusted. It always gets readjusted.

Jessica: My question is I feel just in terms of your credentials/qualifications, you’re a therapist, you’re a conflict coach, you’re a lawyer, and you’re a mediator. To me, I feel like you’re what everyone’s dream would be to a divorce lawyer hitting it from all angles. I’m a little bit curious as to a) how common that is that someone’s lawyer will also have all of these other qualifications? On a personal note, I’m curious about which came first. Were you first a lawyer or then the therapist and had that? The conflict coach part, I mean, I didn’t, and I had never before we booked this interview, I didn’t really know anything about conflict coaches. I’m curious is that a growing area? Is that something that people should be looking for when they are identifying who they’re going to work with in terms of their divorce attorney?

Abby: Okay, we’ll go through them all starting with the back one. The conflict coach, I call it that, I don’t think it’s a–and it’s the same thing that happens when I’m acting as a parenting coordinator also although there are two parents there, that’s post-judgment usually. The conflict coach is because the person has to–Let’s go back. Let me start to think about this again. There are many people who call themselves divorce coaches. They have a variety of credentials–

Jessica: Right, but they’re not lawyers.

Jessica: Right. I don’t know much about that, although I know that it’s there. I call myself a coach only because I stopped my therapeutic practice. I wanted to make it very clear I’m not going to be doing diagnoses and evaluations and there was no insurance and things like that. The word coach has a very, very broad meaning that can go from someone who is a therapist who is providing coaching, because they’re not providing therapeutic interventions and services, to someone who went through something like a wounded warrior or wounded healer type who has training and desire and helps out. The reason why I call myself a conflict coach is that there are a lot of times where people come to me and say I want to settle amicably, but the other won’t. In that, the question is, if you want to settle, the big question is, what do you know about the other person so that you can give them an offer that you know the other person will accept? It’s not, what is the offer that you want. It has to be within the realm of what you want but to settle, you often, let’s just make it a very simple one-issue settlement. You’re always looking, if you cannot settle with the other person, because they don’t understand you, they don’t agree with you, they don’t believe you, they hate you, whatever, you always have an opportunity to settle if you offer what they want. [Of course] How to get there though takes a lot of insight work as well as sort of strategic work. That’s what is happening for me and most of my clients in conflict coaching, because they don’t want to be in an adversarial system for example, but they also can’t get the other person to the table. That’s an example of that. That’s sort of different than, which can happen too, but I just want to say because you probably have other people on that describe other things they do. People who have decided to make a plan like, I’m going to get divorced, and they need someone to support them in the process of that transition, right? They’ve already made the plan. That’s just different. I mean, that happens and that’s important.

Jessica: You’re differentiating a divorce coach from [that]. Right, fair enough.

Abby: Okay, so that just happens a lot. It kind of evolved because what do I do if I’m a mediator, and both people are voluntarily engaging in a process, right? If I can’t get the other person to the table, they still have the problem, so what can they do alone without the other? Sometimes I do that with parents, not even in parenting coordination, parents who are having problems with the other parent that they don’t have a lot of knowledge about what’s going on in the other household, for instance. They are looking for a way to parent their child in the best way for the child without the knowledge of what’s going on in the household.

T.H.: We were just talking about that actually. When decisions are made and the kids are kind of–well, this is already post-divorce but the kids are kind of working it. Like, “You don’t let me do that and you don’t let me do this, so I’m going to do this at his house and this at her house.” All of a sudden they’re not victims. They’re like conniving little sneaky people.

Abby: Yeah. I had clients just this week who get along really well, but the child is really good now at splitting them. “Oh, well, at mom’s house she always lets me stay up till 9:30” and “At dad’s house, he always lets me eat ice cream for dinner”, whatever. [Totally] We had a long chat together about how they have to appear to be working together and mesh. They’re like the kids done here. As my father used to say to me, it’s not a democracy. “Who told you that living in this family was a democracy? I don’t know how that happened.”

Jessica: So true. So true.

T.H.: Yeah, I know, but we don’t reinforce that all the time. That’s our problem. Next time–

Jessica: It’s hard to force though when you have two households and you know there are different priorities in each household, which probably existed anyway, even when you were married. That definitely can be challenging. And then Abby, the therapy degree with the law degree?

T.H.: How’d you get here?

Abby: How’d I get here? The law degree came first, but before I went to law school, I worked in residential treatment centers in college and in high school for really fragile adolescents. I always had sort of a window into that, but then I went to law school, and then I got completely co-opted into–I went to law school, because my professor, I want to be a lobbyist helping the aged, actually. My Marxist professor told me that you can’t fight the system unless you know the system, one of these things. Then I went to the system, which was fantastic, and then I got co-opted. I did a lot of different things in law, and then came back to family and then got a degree and worked as a therapist.

Jessica: I mean, it’s amazing, because like I was saying, I feel for anyone looking for a lawyer, for you to cover kind of all of those sides and have all of those angles and add all of that insight, I would think would make for a much easier process. I’m curious, I don’t know why I’m so into numbers and stats today, probably all the stuff that T.H. and I were working on yesterday, but I’m curious to know only because I do know that there are people who go into mediation and then it just can’t work out, they end up having to litigate, because we can’t come to two sides. I’m curious, in your experience with both sides of being the therapist and the lawyer, the overwhelming majority of your clients, are they able to work it out in mediation? Or do you have people that really still end up having to go through litigation anyway?

Abby: The answer to that is most of my clients in mediation finish in mediation. Almost the vast, the very, very vast, I mean, in the 99%. But you have to remember, it’s self-selected that they chose mediation. I do have clients though that are in the middle of litigation who then sort of put a pause on litigation to come to mediation. Those clients are different because sometimes there’s a question of law that still has to be decided by the court, for example, that really does impact a solution. Sometimes those clients need somebody else to tell them what to do because they’re very far down the process. Those I have, I don’t know, maybe–I’m very annoying as an optimist. When people come to me, I’m like, you’re my clients, and I’m just telling you that my job is to get you to a resolution. I’d say that’s less than 90 for sure.

T.H.: But that’s managing expectations.

Abby: Yeah.

T.H.: I mean, because we speak to so many lawyers and they were saying how they spend too much of their time and too much of their client’s money trying to be their therapist. [Oh, yeah] And so they send them to somebody else, but Abby does literally wear two different hats. Why don’t you explain to our audience? You told me it can’t be within the law firm. They’re two separate–

Abby: A law firm can’t have someone with another license practicing that profession within a law firm, at least in New York. I don’t know about other states. I’ve been doing this for a long time as me and then I started working in law firms. When I started working in law firms, I had a therapeutic practice also. What I decided in my head was I was Rosmarin Coaching and I worked at a law firm. When I do work that is mediation and legally oriented, I work in my law firm. I’m a partner in a law firm, Berkman, Bottger, Newman & Schein, a family law firm in Manhattan, White Plains, and I do my work there. Then when I do other things like conflict coaching, family facilitation, teaching, and other things, I do it from Rosmarin Coaching. But you see, for me, I just show up as me.

T.H.: Right, so it’s you. No, I know. I just wanted to make it clear or something. Like, wow, you’re like a resident therapist in the law firm with your partners. Not really like that, but your perspective on things, you bring that expertise with you in terms of mediation and helping people work through their conflicts.

Abby: Yeah, but I’m not good–Let’s remember, we all have skills. I’m horrible–I worked in a big, big law firm when I first started out. I am horrible in the litigation model. I’m not good–[and you found your lane]. Right. I’m fine with negotiation, but I don’t care about certain things that you must care about if you’re going to be an astute litigator like the rules of evidence when you’re cross-examining a witness. It’s just not my wheelhouse.

Jessica: But listen, there’s a time and a place and a vast need for mediation, collaboration, that kind of amicable divorce process. It certainly seems that back in the day, litigation was probably the primary route that people took. It certainly seems like the tides are turning, the trends are moving, more and more people today are understanding, it seems, the value of working together to try to get things done as quickly and as painlessly as possible. It can’t always be done for sure, but it does seem like people are moving in that direction. I mean, not everybody wants to go in and fight it out in court. Although we did have a conversation with a lawyer who’s a mediator who had said that it is a misnomer that mediation costs less than litigation. I guess that’s due to–you could be your family with the rug. You could be having people in there who are spending hours and hours and hours mediating things, which are going to cost them money.

Abby: No, I actually would say this, I don’t know about the misnomer. I would say, because if you went to court and had an order to show cause to bring that rug to my house on Tuesday–I think what happens more is that, and I don’t discount anybody who needs to litigate, I think the whole point for me is you have to understand what you’re about, and what the other person with whom you’re in conflict is about. Maybe you can’t have the best decision, you want to do mediation, but the other person wants to litigate. Well, you can’t bring them to the table unless you choose to settle in a certain way. I have zero opinion about what mode of problem-solving you go into. I just know, if the people go into my mode, how I help them. I think the other thing is that I do know that people like to be treated fairly. The question of what is fair, and they want to be heard, and I think that some people think that I will be treated fairly by a non-biased judge in a courthouse, and that’s really important. If that’s how you think you’re going to be treated fairly, you go there. The cost of getting there is hard, especially now in the pandemic, but I also think that if we hear that and say, “Oh, you want to be treated fairly. What does fair mean to you?”

T.H.: Right. That’s a really big question.

Abby: We might have greater insight as to what problem-solving process would be better for you and best for you. I also think that it’s so painful to go through change. It is so painful to be forced, or have upon you forced, or to want to force a restructuring of a family. The time and effort that should be basically spent on what capacities do you have and what support you have versus thinking about bad or good because you’ve chosen this problem-solving method. There’s nothing to me to do about that. I take people from where they are and then just try to help them that way. Yeah, this is how I always think about this, I don’t know. Kurt Vonnegut’s son wrote a book once, he was bipolar, and he’s now a medical doctor. He’s a pediatrician or something. I’m paraphrasing, but at one point, I think he tried to jump through a plate glass window. I mean, he was really sick and now he’s not. He went to med school and he’s a pediatrician. The story that I heard him say is that he gives the nurses his lithium levels every day, or he used to at least, this is what I am, really open about it. To paraphrase him, from my memory, so it might not be exact, they said to him, what’s it like? He was always asked what’s it like to be this way? What’s it like? He goes, “I’m just like you, but only more.”

T.H.: I love that. Oh my god, I love that.

Abby: I know! And I think when you’re in conflict you’re just like you but only more. Like, okay, so that’s what you are. Let’s just think about what that is and let’s see if you being more is helpful to you or not helpful to you. Do you want to be more? I mean, there are so many questions involved in that, but that’s why a lot of people in the legal field talk about good/bad. “Oh, I do collaborative”, “Oh, I do mediation”, or “Oh, I do this. I do that.” Well, you know, why don’t you just listen to what your client needs, and if you can give that service, great, and if you can’t then refer them.

Jessica: That’s right.

T.H.: Right. Right, because you guys have done way more divorces than we’ve lived. [Sure] And that would have been very helpful to me. A lot would have been more helpful to me. I mean, honestly, that’s why Jessica and I started exEXPERTS because we didn’t have the kind of resources that are there for people today. We want people to know that you have choices, you have options, and you don’t have to get sucked into the vacuum. You don’t have to feel intimidated. There are people to help you figure out the best way for you to figure out this huge change in your life. And kudos and lucky are those people who have worked with you because you do have a certain mindset that keeps things more humane. You’re not just working a system. It’s a human being, it’s a life, it’s a family, it’s a dream, and it’s a change, and so that’s really awesome.

Jessica: Yeah.

Abby: Well, thank you for that.

Jessica: We’re going to have to end there. We’d love to have you back and talk more about this because it is so interesting and loving your perspective on all sides. For anyone listening who has questions for Abby, please let us know what they are so that we can get that information and she can share it with you. For people that are looking to reach out to you directly or want to find you, what are the best ways for them to find you?

Abby: I think the best way, the easiest way, on a podcast would be if you look at www.rosmarincoaching.com. That also links to my law firm, which has a lot of names to it so you can just click through the link. It’s also my personal website so you can also see my perspective on lots of things including my blog, or whatever. I think that’s just easier.

Jessica: Perfect. And we’ll have links to that on the exEXPERTS site as well. For anyone listening who if you have anybody in your life that is thinking about getting divorced or going through a divorce, that can use this kind of information, please feel free to hit share and forward it to them because this is valuable information that can actually really help so many people. Thank you, Abby, for taking the time today and spending the time with us because this was just such a great conversation.

Abby: My pleasure. And I am so excited by what you do. When I heard about it, I have to tell you that this idea of having this platform for people is just so creative, but then also so useful, right? It’s a beautiful thing.

T.H.: Thank you.

Abby: So kudos to you two.

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