FULL TRANSCRIPT – DIVORCE ETC… PODCAST

INTERVIEW – TRACY ROSS, SEASON 4, EPISODE 3

Jessica: Are you dealing with how you even ended up in this place getting divorced? Of course, none of us get married with the idea that we’ll get divorced. But oftentimes we find ourselves questioning how we even married this partner to begin with. We’re talking all about that in today’s episode of the Divorce etc… podcast. We’re the exEXPERTS, Jessica and T.H. We help you navigate your divorce and successfully move on with your life. Make sure to follow us on all social media at exEXPERTS, and go to www.exexperts.com for free divorce related resources. Let’s bring in today’s guest.

T.H.: Hey, guys, it’s T.H. here from exEXPERTS, and I’m really happy to introduce you all to Tracy Ross. She is the founder of Redesigning Relationships. Tracy and I have spoken several times about many things. She will be back after this episode. But as we were talking and getting to know one another, I’m like, “Tracy, how did I even marry that man? How did I even do that? I wouldn’t even be friends with him today.” That’s what we’re talking about today. I’m really glad that you joined us because we really need to explore this. I think a lot of people have regret. They’re looking at themselves. What’s wrong with me? How did I end up with him or with her? How did how did this even happen? We’re hoping you can help us dissect it.
Jessica: That’s right. Welcome.

Tracy: This is such an important topic. I mean, because as you know, I work with relationships, people getting together in a marriage, getting out of a marriage, and it always comes back to how did you choose each other. Sometimes there’s a positive story there and there’s something to work with to rebuild a relationship. But a lot of the time, right from the very beginning, there are flags, there are signs, there are reasons that they chose to be together and probably shouldn’t have, and probably should have paid attention to. I also have a lot of young women in my practice, who 26, 27, “All my friends are getting engaged. They’re all getting married.”

Jessica: Right, so now they’re not even looking with the right intention.

Tracy: Exactly. It’s just like, “Will you do?” and the whole Instagram culture of the wedding and the engagement. But in my work with people relevant to this audience, who are getting divorced or in the process or post divorce and looking for a new relationship, you have to really start looking at how they chose the person they chose. If you don’t look at that, you may just choose a similar type of person, even without realizing it. You think they come in a different package and they come with different credentials, but you get into the relationship, then all of a sudden, it starts to feel familiar, or it starts to feel similar. If you don’t really understand why you chose, how you chose that person—I think we all sort of choose, not all of us, but we look for things—well, okay, I’m not going to get into that right now. That’s for later. But what I say to people and what I have observed over the years in my personal life and my professional life is that we choose partners who mirror where we are in our personal development. If you have done some work on yourself, if you understand your stuff and what you’re needing to do, then you’re going to choose a very different partner versus choosing from your wounded self, someone you need to complete you, who you’re hoping will make whatever pain whatever insecurity go away. That’s a very different choice from an empowered position. I actually have a number of friends who got divorced in their 50s and they are killing it career wise, relationship wise.

T.H.: In the best way possible. Yes.

Tracy: In the best way possible. Yeah, in the best way possible. I think it comes from a sense of self, a sense of just personal value—valuing yourself. I see them choosing very different partners than the people they divorced. That’s on the personal level. Did you want to say something?

T.H.: I was watching the Golden Bachelor last night. I’ve never watched it. I’m not a Bachelor Nation girl. I’m none of those Love Paradise—I don’t know, whatever. But I was watching, and he’s like a little goofy or whatever, but what I liked is he was really considerate about her feelings. He was saying a lot of things that I’m sure on the regular Bachelor and Bachelorette are not being said. They may have been thought, but he was like, “No, we really connected on the deepest level in the way that’s important to me,” because he had lost his wife. He wasn’t divorced. But picking a partner, you don’t even know—I mean he’s been through loss. But I’m not even sure—look, I don’t know him from anything. I know for me, I didn’t know what my weaknesses were. I didn’t know what my struggles were. I ended up with this guy who was literally reinforcing the negative stuff from my mother because that’s what I knew. And so honestly, once I figured that out, I was like, “Thank God I figured that out. I didn’t just choose that man because I like this behavior.” But why do we do that? Why do we pick the devil we know?

Tracy: It’s so ingrained in us. We get these messages from an early age, and from that, we decide this is my self worth, this is what I deserve, and this is what I’m supposed to do. Also, we watch our parents do it, right? You watch the way your parents are in relationships, the way your grandparents are, the way people around you are, and you absorb those messages. If you didn’t have good role models, which many people don’t—so many people I talk to don’t even know what they can ask for in a good relationship, what they deserve, what they want, what they—

Jessica: Well, give us some examples. I would love some tangible advice for the people listening. What are some things that people should be able to ask for that you’re saying your clients oftentimes don’t even know?

Tracy: I mean, I have a client who I’ve been working with for probably five years, and she five years ago wanted to leave her husband because he is an alcoholic. He is very emotionally, like on the good end, neglectful, and on the bad end, abusive. She has to do everything. You know this story. You’ve heard this story many times, right? She came from a family where they did not value her. Her strengths were not the family’s strengths. I mean, for all kinds of reasons that I won’t get into, she got this message that she was not the right child for that family and she was not good enough. If you met her, she is seriously beautiful, and so smart, and so accomplished, and lovely, right? She tells me these stories about this guy who sleeps till 12 o’clock, she does everything with the kids, sometimes makes money sometimes doesn’t, blah, blah, blah. Now she’s fast forwarded, she’s finally gotten up the strength to ask him to leave, and he is trying to decimate her with “It’s your fault. You asked for this. What’s the matter with you?” Even today, what we’re working on now is her belief that maybe he’s right. It’s like such old stuff coming. She hears her mother’s voice. She hears her father’s voice. All the messages are still there, and she’s still doubting it. But I mean to her credit, she’s done it. She asked him to move out, and he’s out. But the doubt—she shouldn’t have any doubt, right? Like, why is she doubting?

Jessica: No, no, no, right. I totally understand that. I know that there are people listening who totally relate to that. Let’s move forward. Whether it’s her or anyone else, in a healthy relationship, what are three or four things that people should be able to ask for of their partners that you see couples not being able to ask for?

Tracy: You should ask for someone to—this might be a little vague, but I’ll break it down—not in these words, but to care about the impact of their behavior on you. When you are married to someone, you affect each other. We can’t just say, “You have to accept me for who I am. Too bad if you don’t like that I sleep till 12 o’clock when we have screaming kids in the morning.” There are some ways you do have to accept each other. But you have to care about how you affect each other. That’s something that you can ask for.

Jessica: Yeah, that’s valid.

Tracy: And that’s a fair thing. A lot of people don’t, right?

T.H.: I did not. I did not.

Tracy: Did not.

T.H.: That’s how I take responsibility for my marriage not working out because I allowed him to treat me like shit, to treat our marriage like shit. The idea of a family and what a healthy family is, he abused all of those things, and I said nothing. I said nothing until it was clear that we were separating, and then I had one day after we separated that I literally vomited words all over him that must have been pent up for 10 years, but I had never said them. I had never said them because when you say those things, it becomes real. Jess, I mean, you have a different relationship with Daren clearly than I did with my ex husband. Do you ever think, “How did I end up with Daren?” Or do you think “I ended up with Daren and he went astray”?

Jessica: I don’t. I don’t. Look, Daren cheated and that’s, to me, on him, having made that decision. Because I think two people can be in a relationship where things aren’t good and you’re both not satisfied and unhappy, but if one crosses the line into infidelity, that’s your choice. I don’t take responsibility for the fact that he cheated. We never went to marriage counseling. Yes, I can take responsibility for that. But I don’t question how I ended up with him. I think for the most part, other than the cheating, I think we had a very healthy relationship. I think he totally respected me. I think he admired my career and admired the strength I had as a person. I think he thought I was funny. I don’t mean to build him up as the end all be all, but I’m just saying I feel like we had a very healthy relationship. What I think is that it’s almost more my second marriage where I wonder, “How did I end up in that marriage?” Not abusive at all, not emotionally abusive, not the kind of person who treated me like shit at all, but very incompatible. Clearly, I missed things that were flags, that I didn’t either consider to be flags at the time, or that I pushed down because I was like, “Well, that’s not that big of a deal, because he’s great in these other ways.” I think that it’s very common that you can be questioning where you were in a relationship, not because it was an abusive or disrespectful relationship, but just because you’re like, “That just did not work at all. How did I make such a wrong choice?” T.H. and I are coming from very different places, but she’s also now in this amazing relationship. I have not found my forever person. And so I do wonder, what are the things that I should know that I should be able to ask for? I have accepted the fact that I ended up in my second marriage based on he fulfilled needs that clearly I needed at the time, which to your point, Tracy, it’s where you are in your relationship.

Tracy: It’s where you are.

Jessica: And I have accepted that. I still think he’s a value-add in my life. We’re still close, and he’s still close with my kids, and so I love all that. I just think it’s important that for our audience that we make it clear that it’s not just based on relationships that are really unhealthy, but you can be in a relationship with someone where—

Tracy: It’s just not right for you.

Jessica: It just isn’t right. Then how do I prevent that from happening again?

Tracy: Well, I will answer that. But I think one thing is you have a right to ask to be someone’s priority. What does that look like? That’s different for every relationship. You have a right to, along those lines, to have boundaries that work for both of you with in-laws, with whatever factors are in your life, like boundaries that feel right to both of you. I mean, we could get into sex. I don’t think we have time, but I work with a lot of couples where people have different—

Jessica: I think that’s a huge, crucial issue.

T.H.: It is.

Tracy: Yeah, yeah. Where one person’s like, “No, I’m done with that part of our relationship, and the other person—”

Jessica: Well, it’s not a priority.

Tracy: It’s not a priority. They’re made to feel like there’s something wrong with them. You have a right to want to have a healthy sex life. I mean, you know… and a lot of couples I see—

Jessica: Yeah.

T.H.: Hallelujah.

Tracy: Yeah. There’s that. And you have a right just to—okay, so to your second question about how do you choose one thing, I give people this exercise to do, and I did it in my own life many years ago, is you have to know yourself and know what your non-negotiables are. What is really important to you in a relationship? You also have to know the difference between if someone’s workable and if you’re just hoping something will get better or change.

Jessica: How can you tell?

T.H.: Right. That’s very interesting because everybody’s on a—

Tracy: How can you tell behavior? It’s not what people say, it’s what people do.

T.H.: Right.

Tracy: Not a promise. Not a “I’ll do it in the future”. Have you seen them do that thing? Have you seen them try to do that thing? Have you seen them work on that thing? That’s very different. Oh, and another one, a huge one, the ability to have a conflict, to hear you—Huge. Huge. Just like, not shut down, not get defensive, and not turn it around on you. If you can’t do that, I wouldn’t be in that relationship. I wouldn’t.

T.H.: I certainly was never heard in my relationship. I had zero voice. If I spoke up, it was wrong. It was wrong. There was a negative to it.

Tracy: Right.

T.H.: We’re going to pause here for a quick moment. Because did you guys know that in addition to the Divorce etc… podcast, we have an awesome newsletter? We don’t clutter up your inbox. Instead, we connect through our personal stories and give you a laugh and tons of valuable divorce tips. We just recently heard from one of our exEXPERTS who replies on a regular basis and said, “I really love your newsletter.” And she’s not even divorced. She’s happily married. But wait, there’s more. You’ll also gain exclusive access to our exEXPERTS Divorce Rulebook, which you’ll use even when your divorce is over, as a gentle reminder that you have a voice, you have choices, and you’re not alone. Sign up at www.exexperts.com. You don’t know what you don’t know. But we do.

Jessica: I just want to get back to that piece for the conflict. Because T.H. knows I was in relationship last year with someone where I felt conflict was starting too early in my relationship. T.H. always talks about how important it is to trust your gut, which I’m learning. That was first little seed for me, where I was like, “Wow, I feel like we’re not really—it hasn’t been long enough.” It’s been like four or five months, and conflict was arising. When we were having this conversation, this disagreement, he mimicked me. I said, “I don’t know what to tell you.” He was like, “I don’t know what to tell you.” I was like, “Whoa!”

T.H.: Whoa! I didn’t know that.

Jessica: I had told other friends. When I told my therapist, everyone was like, “Oh my God, that’s really such a non starter.”

T.H.: That’s super ugly.

Jessica: I remember saying to him, “We can’t have that. There’s no place for that in having a disagreement.” I feel like conflict resolution, or being in a similar space when it comes to disagreement and conflict, is a priority, basically.

T.H.: I think so too.

Jessica: Because if you can’t resolve things, that’s the kind of shit that will build up and build up and build up and fester and explode, and you never even have a chance.

T.H.: And make you sick. I got to tell you guys, when you are in a certainly healthier relationship, it may not be the relationship, but you will start to see things. The relationship that I’m in now, really, it’s so healthy that I question it sometimes. But there was something that was kind of bothering me and I brought it up. But in the past, I would literally be freaking out about how am I going to say this, what am I going to say? He’s going to blow up at me. That’s still when I have something to say in this relationship, I feel. But it goes away really quickly because that’s not this guy. That was the other guy.

Tracy: He hears you.

T.H.: So really remembering where you are right now. But I brought something up to him. He had made a comment, and I challenged him. I’m like, “Listen, does this really bother you that I don’t do that, because you make kind of a joke about it, but it’s kind of a sensitive thing for me?” He’s like, “I literally was just kidding. It’s absolutely not. No way.” And so now he saw that I was sensitive to it. And I did it. Every time you do that, you flex a new muscle. You’re like, “Oh my God, it’s going to be okay. It’s really, really not this guy.”

Jessica: Yeah.

Tracy: Yeah.

T.H.: Or it could be a friendship or parent or a colleague that you’re freaking out about. How you chose this person, there’s so many little things that are going to come your way that you’re—I hate to say it—but it’s damage and it’s baggage from before, that now you have to challenge if you’re moving on.

Jessica: But Tracy, what would you say are the red flags people should be looking out for? Because I know every relationship is different, but there’s definitely common ground in terms of, like you were saying, these are things everybody should feel comfortable asking for. What are some things that everybody should be aware of that that are red flags that we sometimes may not be prioritizing properly?

Tracy: Okay, like abusive relationships to substances that makes you uncomfortable. The way they drink, or they’re high all the time and they’re very defensive. You can’t talk about it. It just bothers you.

T.H.: Fair.

Tracy: Really unhealthy past relationships, I think that’s a flag for me. If I hear a story about someone’s past relationship that really sounds—you can’t just blame the other person, right? So, to me, that’s a flag. Inability to take responsibility for behavior. I don’t know… a strange relationship to work, to their career, weak relationships with their family or friends, or a lot of people they don’t talk to. I mean, there’s a lot of things that people ignore, and you can believe when you’re in the in-love phase, “Well, his ex wife was just terrible,” “Oh, his daughter’s so unfair to him,” “No one understands him.” You’ve got to pay attention to those things.

Jessica: Well, defending that person, I think in general, maybe. If you’re needing to defend them too much, then maybe you’re going down the wrong road.

T.H.: You may not even see—I got to tell you, like, I did all the things. I remember it. It wasn’t like I pushed it that far away, but I still did it.

Jessica: Like what?

T.H.: Like, he’d do stuff, and my parents challenged me, and I was like, I made up stuff. I was lying to them, lying to myself, flying blind, just sending around a really bad message. But let’s get back to how did you end up with this person? What are your coping skills? How can people work on themselves? Okay, you are ready to separate, divorce, and move on from that relationship. When you’re presented with the regret and guilt, you’ve got kids, people are judging, your religion—how do you cope and move forward? What are your tips for that?

Tracy: I think what you said, working on yourself, and not just running to another relationship to try to fill the void is really important, like taking that time and trying to heal yourself and trying to really understand yourself. It’s much easier to blame the other person and point out all their flaws. But I do something called discernment counseling with couples who aren’t sure they’re getting divorced. What discernment counseling really is, is a format to look at yourself. What did you bring to this relationship that you want to work on, whether it’s this person or someone else in the future? You have to take the time and deal with the fear of being alone, of the stigma, of just all the uncertainty that comes with not—and just reach out to your people. Let people be there for you. But don’t just try to fill the hole with stuff that isn’t going to make the difference. Because I mean, I’ve also watched this, I have someone in mind who went from two bad marriages to now a great relationship. In between number one and number two, she just was frantically dating, trying to find someone. She found someone who she thought was great, but he had a little anger problem. She thought “Well, it doesn’t happen that often.” The line of “Well, it only happens every once in a while,” is it okay if it ever happens? Is once a year okay to blow up on you? You got to understand why you’re okay with that. Then between number two and number three, she took the time. She really took the time. She was lonely, and she was insecure, and she was just—

T.H.: Scared, I’m sure.

Tracy: Scared and just leaned into it for the first time in her life. You got to be in the discomfort. I don’t mean wallow in it and be depressed and miserable, I mean—

T.H.: Work through it.

Tracy: Work through it in a productive way. I used to have this yoga teacher who said, “We all want to do the poses we’re good at. We don’t want to do the poses we’re not good at.” It’s the same in life, right? We want to pay attention to the things we’re good at. We don’t want to pay attention to what we’re not. But those are the things we need to pay attention to.

Jessica: So how do people work on those things? I mean, look, T.H. and I always advocate therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy. You got to talk to someone. You got to have all of that. But I’m sure there are people listening who are like, “I don’t know what that means—work on myself?”

T.H.: Where do I even begin? But before you answer that, I also want to establish the fact that you can have a bad feeling from people around you. Just make sure if you’re going to friends and family or someone who’s not a professional, that they’re not also making you feel yucky inside, because that’s not the person to go to. Be very careful who you pick within your circle of life who’s not a professional, because you need a no judgment zone. By the way, that’s what Jessica and I are as well. But now go ahead and answer that question.

Tracy: I mean, exactly, right? Choose your people carefully. I mean, mindfulness is really big right now. But I actually think that some of the practices, like just journaling—if you don’t want to do therapy, if you don’t want to talk, just develop a journaling practice. Just write. Just dump your thoughts, dump your feelings onto paper once a day for 20 minutes. Something will start to emerge. Something will come out of that. That’s a really simple thing you can do. I mean, pay attention to other parts of your life too, right? Your career, your physical fitness, health, all that stuff, your kids. Maybe just develop some other areas that have been neglected. Pursue hobbies, passions, interests, all that stuff, like, grow. Just find ways to grow things that excite you. I think therapy is great, but there are a lot of alternatives these days. There’s a lot of like, yeah.

T.H.: Well, it should be a whole package. For me, it was therapy, it was fitness and wellness, and it was being with my people who really are my advocates to make me feel happy. Also, I like the idea of volunteering. I think that always makes you feel good. I did journal, but I also like the idea of learning. Online, there are so many things now you can learn. Challenge your brains. Check out new stuff. It’s such a low barrier to entry, and there’s no risk, especially if you’re online. No one cares if you don’t like it. If you don’t care, who knew?

Tracy: Right. All this stuff, you’re bringing more of yourself into your next relationship, right? There are certain people who want a weak version of you, or want a more needy version of you. You’re going to draw a very different person to you based on where you are in yourself, right?

T.H.: I agree with that 100%. Because the relationships I was in before this one, I met people where I was. Where I was, was better than where I had been, but it’s not where I am now.

Jessica: Right.

T.H.: Then if you keep growing and learning, you grow out of that relationship, or you’re in the right place. It depends, right?

Jessica: I also think, though, that what’s important to you, like what you prioritize, I don’t believe everybody has to have all the same hobbies. But I feel things that you prioritize—I think you have to be on the same page. Because I’m thinking of a friend who is dating a guy who has his own issues and will not go to therapy for them. I’ve said to her, I’m like, “It’s like a losing battle. Because if he’s not going to try to talk through or figure out what he knows are the issues”—it’s like he acknowledges the problems but doesn’t really want to talk about it. I’m like, “That’s a red flag.”

Tracy: Yeah, yeah. There are also pink flags, right? Red flags, in a way, are more obvious. But things that are just kind of, like, man, maybe you notice them, but eh—

T.H.: Makes you uncomfortable.

Tracy: Make you uncomfortable. For instance, they don’t like to socialize or they don’t want to go out with your friends. You can tell yourself more easily about something like that, “Oh, that doesn’t really matter. I can still see my friends. They can do something else.”

Jessica: But it does matter in the end.

Tracy: But it ends up like, the things that are small at the time tend to just get bigger. They do. Yeah, I think pink flags matter. Planning, also.

Jessica: I like that, pink flags.

T.H.: And that’s your favorite color.

Jessica: Yeah, exactly. That is true.

Tracy: Mine too.

Jessica: But also just the idea that for me personally, and I did go to therapy after my second divorce, but when I think back to the whole how did I end up there? That’s the definition—they weren’t red flags; they were pink flags. They were things that maybe weren’t great, but also were fine in the context of how things were working out. But over time, developed into bigger issues, where I’m like, I don’t know how I didn’t see that that would have been a bigger issue.

T.H.: Well, because you rationalized or convinced yourself. You were like, “Oh, but we have so much fun on the weekend,” and “He’s so nice to my kids,” so maybe going forward this isn’t such an important thing. It’s hard to figure out what matters.

Jessica: So I have a question. For people who are listening who are in a situation, they met someone, they’re dating, whatever, and there are some things that they’re like, “Eh, that’s not great, but this over here, these things are really great,” what’s your advice in terms of how you prioritize those things?

Tracy: Well, that gets back to you really have to know yourself. I think you have to know, if this doesn’t change, can I live with this?

Jessica: That’s the question.

Tracy: If this never gets any better than it is today, is that something I can live with, be happy with? Am I keeping this a secret from my friends, this part of my relationship? Am I embarrassed about it? Or is it just, “Yeah, this is annoying”? Everyone has annoying things, or everyone has things you don’t love, right? It’s just the way it is. But can I really live with this? On the main points, I think it’s also how do you feel with the person? Really, pay attention to that. Do you feel like a better version of yourself? Do you feel like you can grow together? Where would you be five years from now? To go back to sex, if you’re basically having not a lot of sex and that’s okay for you, that’s okay, even if your friends aren’t. But if it’s not okay for you and you’re telling yourself, “Oh, I can live with this,” or “Maybe it’ll change. Maybe it’s just we’re going through a bad time,” those are the people who end up in my office really unhappy.

T.H.: I just feel like I have so many friends now who settle. They literally settle. I mean, I have a friend who is getting married, and I know she’s settling. This is her third marriage, and she is 100% giving up all the things that are important to her.

Tracy: Does she know that?

T.H.: Huh?

Tracy: Does she know she’s doing that or—?

Jessica: She’s got to know it deep down inside.

T.H.: She’s too far gone. Nothing I’d say—she would just be mad at me. But I just feel like, “Wake up! What are you doing?” I have another friend who’s dating a guy who’s like, “Eh.” Literally, that’s the sound that describes the way I feel about it. She is settling. My message is this, and not everyone might be like me, I know most people are not, but I will no longer settle. There is nothing in my relationship that I’m not afraid to talk about that makes me feel icky. I respect them. I love that he has a life. It all complements me. So for me personally, it all works. I’ve removed all the ick in my relationships. The other ones weren’t bad relationships, but one of the guys, remember, Jess, he never wanted to go out.

Jessica: Yeah.

T.H.: I would drag him. Even actually, he knew too, and so he would prepare who played the sports that day, what’s happening here—because he’s all about politics—he’d come ready with conversation and trending topics.

Tracy: So he didn’t have to go out.

T.H.: That’s a lot of work. I would dance and be standing by—at the time, there were payphones—by the phone. I was like, “This is not fun. It’s not fun.”

Tracy: But you said you will no longer settle for that, right? You said that.

T.H.: I said, “This isn’t going to work.” Well, sorry, the other thing is when you’re going through new relationships, just really keep your eyes open because you don’t know. I didn’t know that was going to be a thing for me, whether he goes out or not. We don’t even live in the same state. Who cares? But it was a thing. So you have to—

Tracy: Right, right, there might be something that you haven’t encountered before. You don’t even know it’s a flag until you’re like, “Wait a minute, this doesn’t work for me. I don’t like this,” right?

T.H.: That’s right. Right, so live and learn.

Tracy: It’s about being brave. If you really want a good relationship at any age, I believe you can have it, but you really have to believe you can have it and not settle for anything else. Which is I don’t mean that in a Pollyanna rah-rah, woo-woo way—

T.H.: No, it’s the truth.

Tracy: —I mean, like in your core. It’s an abundant universe. You got to get away from scarcity mentality. You have to believe in abundance.

T.H.: I’m literally going to send my friend to you.

Jessica: No, I think this is such a productive conversation, and I really hope everyone listening gets as much out of it as we did. Because I think a lot of the nuggets that you dropped in here are so poignant and important for people to understand. I mean, it really is all about you. I love that it’s like you really just have to know yourself enough to know that you’re not going to be settling. This conversation will have to be continued on.

T.H.: Oh, we’re going to get into the whole sex part of it.

Jessica: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But in the meantime, if you enjoyed this episode of the Divorce etc… podcast with the exEXPERTS today, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review. That really helps us by bumping us up on the podcast platforms, and then more people can find us and we can help them as they’re going through divorce and beyond. Check the show notes for more info on Tracy and Redesigning Relationships, along with the coaching and counseling programs she offers. And of course, share this episode with anyone you know who can benefit from listening. Have a great day.