PODCAST SUMMARY

It’s a sad fact that many people don’t get divorced, or feel more shame and judgment about their divorce, based on their religious and cultural beliefs. Divorce doesn’t just affect you and your partner and children…it affects all of your loved ones in some way – siblings, parents, and friends. How do you navigate the feelings of letting other people down? Of feeling like you’re doing something that your religion or culture frowns upon? Of feeling like you’re doing something wrong by getting divorced and will be judged or shunned because of it? This is a powerful and uplifting conversation with Rabbi Adina Lewittes all about spirituality and divorce and the ways to serve yourself best during what is one of the most difficult times of your life.

OUR GUEST – Rabbi Adina Lewittes

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to another episode of the exEXPERTS DIVORCE etc… Podcast where we give you all kinds of information and tips on everything divorce. Why? We’ve lived it, so we get it! We’re T.H. & Jessica.

Jessica: In today’s podcast episode, we are so excited to welcome Rabbi Adina Lewittes, with who we want to start having a series of conversations about spirituality, and obviously the topic of divorce and how it affects not just ourselves and our soon to be ex and our children per se, but really, it affects members of our extended family, our friends, others in the community, and it’s just a really wide-ranging conversation that we feel like is necessary to have. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Adina: I’m so happy to be here. And thanks for inviting me.

T.H.: Thanks for being here. I’m excited about today’s conversation. Every time we speak to Rabbi Adina–okay, every time we speak with Dini, it’s you just don’t want to stop because she is very understanding, empathetic, and has her own story here. Why don’t we start with that?

Jessica: Yeah, tell us a little bit about your own background and experience with divorce.

Adina: I’m the product of divorced parents, and my parents divorced when I was nine. I spent my childhood and my adulthood, particularly when I myself was getting married, continuing to negotiate. It’s a time or an event in my life that I often like to say is not something that happens, that we respond to, or get over and then move on from. When divorce happens, it’s something that our lives accommodate to and revisit and have to negotiate over and over again. I myself am also divorced. I was married for about 12 years and had four children from that marriage. It came to that juncture in my own life and continued to build a life beyond that, but nonetheless, understand its presence in various events and decisions that continue to unfold.

Jessica: One of the things that we felt was really important, and something that we felt was missing from exEXPERTS was that kind of spiritual guidance, which we were so happy to come to you for. I think one of our initial conversations, I was talking about how upset, not angry upset, but upset sad/disappointed my parents were when they found out that I was getting divorced, not just the first time, but the second time as well, and how my parents are still together. That just became almost a bigger burden for my mother to carry than it was for me. We were talking about how that must be and how a lot of people are feeling. I know how this conversation, this topic came about for today. Talk to us a little bit about that with whether it’s your own experience as a real-life expert, or just in guidance that you’re giving to members of your community that are coming to you and not knowing how to help and support those around them when they’re the ones that are actually going through it.

Adina: Yeah, rarely have I encountered conversations that actually get into these kinds of emotional, familial, and even community weeds when it comes to divorce. We think of divorce as something that’s so private that happens between two people. It’s their life, we love them, we try to support them, or we who are going through it want to benefit from the relationships that we have, but we all tend to think of it as happening in the very, very intimate spaces of a particular relationship. But the reality is, as you say, the implications, the changes that divorce brings on are changes that are felt that are rippling through many, many different layers of relationship.

I think particularly for people who identify as spiritual or who may be connected to a religious community, we carry within us an oftentimes challenging task to balance our own needs, our own desires, our own sense of self with that of an entity greater than ourselves, whether that’s an entity that’s defined by certain beliefs in God or an entity that’s defined by a connection to a certain history, to a certain people, to a certain set of values, and ritual expressions. We’re constantly trying to calibrate where do I begin and end? And where do all the other people in my life begin and end? And what does that mean for who I am in this world in the eyes of them and in the eyes of that which is greater than me which I seek to be in relationship? For many, as you say, our relationship to our parents, the disappointment that they may feel in us, maybe because as you say, they have a beautiful marriage and may feel how did I not impart those skills? Or even, and this is a scary word, how did I not teach my child to be able to commit? As if as if there’s a failure there and some kind of lesson that a parent tried so hard to impart to their child. Or what if the parent themselves is a product of divorce, as my mother is, and her heartbreak when she learned that I was getting divorced, wishing for anything but what she had to face to be something that I had to face?

Jessica: For me, personally, my parents I think really did set a wonderful example. I mean, my goal relationship-wise, even from here on out for the second half of my life would be to find something as beautiful and fulfilling as they have. But I think that my parents found it very hard to–and by the way, my older sister is divorced and was divorced before me. So it’s not like my parents had no experience with a child being divorced, but for whatever reason, and I don’t know what their experience with my sister was and how they felt, I’m sure they were broken as well. But I remember for me, and maybe it was because of the infidelity and the affair the first time around, but they were so sad for me. My mother just kept saying to me, I can’t believe that this happened to you. And I can’t believe that you’re going through this, and you have two little kids and a full time job, and you have so much on your plate. I wish I could be there with you. I’m like I don’t have room to carry you right now while I’m trying to get through what I’m getting through. I’m getting through it okay until the times I talk to you, and you’re making me into this victim. There are worse things in the world than getting divorced. Kids are dying in countries from starvation. I can get divorced. But it was like the weight of their sadness was almost more than I could bear.

T.H.: Well, do you think their sadness was because they think that they failed you? 

Jessica: No, I don’t.

T.H.: Or because they just didn’t want you to feel sad?

Jessica: I think because they didn’t want me to feel sad. And I think that because in their minds they don’t know people who have affairs and that wasn’t happening in their circles. I think they were just in disbelief that had happened to me, and I was so young, and they feel like, oh, she has so much to offer. She’s such a great kid. Why would this happen to her? That’s what I think that they were really struggling with. I don’t think that they were struggling with they didn’t teach me the moral lessons of commitment or set a good example. For me, it was like they were so sad, but I was like, I don’t have room for your sadness.

T.H.: I feel like, look, we the three of us try to be the best examples of women, friends, mothers, right? We lead by example and we all make mistakes. Isn’t it just the stigma of divorce that’s making it heavier on everyone, our parents, on us? And the truth is when we are the best version of ourselves, this is how I feel now after 13 years later, but I know that once we are the best version of ourselves, then we are the best example for other people. But we have to, I mean, maybe not go through everything, but some of it to be the best version of ourselves. It’s just totally a different generation. We know so many people who also stay in their marriages because you don’t get a divorce. It’s not really about you. No one really cares about your happiness in some circles. It’s more about what’s right to do and what’s wrong to do. Then like Dini said about it being a failure, it’s not a failure, but in some communities, and I’m sure Dini can shed more light on this, it is totally seen as a failure and it just isn’t seen another way.

Jessica: Religious-wise, I’d love to talk and explore that a little bit because I think that there are people who one faith or another is like, I’m not getting divorced. That’s going to be a dark spot on me in the eyes of God, and that’s just not okay with the fundamental faith that I grew up in.

Adina: You know both of you have raised so many important pieces. T.H., I just want to circle back to one of the things you said about how important it is for us to be grounded in our own lives and our own happiness and in our own truths before we’re able to facilitate as a mother, even as a as a child, or as a friend the search for that happiness, that groundedness, that authenticity and integrity in another human being. As the old adage says, if you don’t love yourself, you’ll never be able to love anybody else, right? It sounds trite, but it’s so, so true.

T.H.: So true.

Adina: When it comes to divorce, without getting into fault, at the end of the day, there’s still the wrestling that we each have to do before we can get to that place, acknowledge that place, and claim that place of wholeness again for ourselves. I think most of us feel we need to do business with the disappointments that we may have caused to our parents, to our children, but also to ourselves.

T.H.: Before then don’t forget about yourself in all of this.

Adina: We can’t, but from the forgiveness perspective too, no matter how a divorce comes to be, the responsibility for being a source of pain to others, whether it’s directly to the partner, or to those who are implicated by the divorce, that’s a process we all have to go through also. That sense of doing business with ourselves, with our own changes, and with our own sometimes limitations, that brings us back to the spiritual piece as well. You know, it’s interesting, I think you’re right that many religious traditions have very definitive attitudes towards divorce, and many of them are quite negative. It’s interesting, in my own tradition, in the Jewish tradition, one of the first references to marriage in the Bible is actually a reference to when a marriage is no longer workable, and how it is that partners should actually take their leave from one another. Now, of course it talks about it in fairly patriarchal context, but my point is that the recognition that marriage, and of course back then marriage wasn’t what we know marriage to be now, it was more often a relationship often transactional about property and family and tribe, whereas today, we talk about love and romance. But nonetheless, what we have there is at least the recognition that not every relationship, which may have been launched with the greatest of integrity, intention, dreams, and goals, comes to fruition or is able to endure over the long course of a lifetime, and that sometimes that bond needs to be dissolved. I think having that recognition baked into a religious tradition that might nonetheless continue to place upon you many, many obligations about what it means to be a mother, or a wife, the head of a family, the manager of a home, nonetheless, that recognition goes a long way in its humaneness. Having said that, also in my own tradition, in the Jewish tradition, there is a very, very emotionally poignant teaching, which says that when two people divorce, God’s altar sheds tears, that there’s a mourning that is expressed even in whether you think of it as heaven or in the precincts of the Divine, whatever any of us might think about when we say the word God or the divine. I’ve struggled with that a lot because how could it be that the reality of my marriage no longer being the relationship that was the right relationship for me, for my husband, even for our family, how could I live with that, thinking that I’ve caused pain to that which is even greater than us, or to God? But I come to, after a lot of wrestling with that image and with those teachings, I have to believe that the tears that are described in that teaching are no more pure, or unidimensional is really what I mean by pure, than our own tears. The tears that we’ve shed for the loss of our dreams, for the loss of those relationships, for the loss of what was not going to come to be that we imagined would come to be. Tears for having been hurt, having caused hurt, tears of worry for the future, but also, I have to believe that on some level those are also tears that are shed in pride for the courage human beings have to be agents of their own happiness and agents of their own wellbeing, hard as that path may be right to forge. Tears of maybe reluctance, but nonetheless pride in the ability for human beings to recognize that life is full of change and that no matter what that change looks like, we do have the capacity to embrace it with integrity if we try to.

Jessica: I love that.

T.H.: I remember like yesterday, feeling for so many years, at least the last four years of my marriage, how incredibly miserable I was. But the thought of getting a divorce, and putting that on my children was the ultimate fear for me. I just wanted out, but it’s not just me. A lot of people talk about, especially the kids we’ve spoken with recently if a parent gets divorced, they then move on with their lives. They get a job, they get a new hairdo, or they get whatever. They’re traveling, moving, and grooving, and whatever. What about the kids? All of my emotion and fear went into what about my kids? I was nowhere to be found. Honestly, it was the universe that got me out of my marriage. Because I was still struggling, even though people were actually telling me and giving me the tools in hand, I couldn’t take it. I needed somebody else to open that door. And they did, and I ran for the border. But I was always worried about my kids. The message I really want to send out just from my own experience is that a little bit of what I said before, and what Dini and Jessica are saying, the best version of yourself makes you the best parent, and the best friend, and the best woman, and the best you that you can be. I stayed in that marriage because the fear of the unknown was paralyzing. But then once I had the opportunity to go, I know that today, this is who I want my kids to emulate. This is who I want my kids to learn from, this version of me and definitely not that version of me. I don’t even know that woman was. It is brave, it’s really scary, but for me, it was a blessing. It was a blessing.

Jessica: I think for most people and the what the message overall that we’re trying to impart through exEXPERTS is that all of the things you guys are both saying, it is scary, it’s dark, and it’s overwhelming, and it’s lonely, and there’s a lot of fear, but that it takes a lot of bravery, it takes a lot of courage, and you will be happier on the other side if you can make it through. We want to be able to help set examples of we’re just like everybody else. The three of us, we’re just like everybody else. Well, Dini, maybe more because she’s a rabbi, but we’re just like everybody else. We had these experiences and to be able to share our own experiences and have someone say, well, if she can do it, I can do it too, that’s a huge part of the messaging. But I do want to go back for a second with the kids because I remember a really poignant part of the conversation Dini that we had with you prior to today was that the idea that not your kids, but our children in general grow up in these households with these married parents who behind closed doors are fucking miserable, and then try to stay together for the kids. Then years later, when the kids are told that their parents are getting divorced, now their version of what they thought was true and real becomes questioned. That’s definitely something that a lot of people and their children must be struggling with. Can you talk to us a little bit about how to handle that kind of situation?

Adina: Yeah, I’d love to tell you a story that actually does come from my relationship with my kids that illuminated for me so many of the deeper levels on which our kids are experiencing the reality of divorce and the issues that it might raise for them. If we take the time to think about this, we might be able to move a little bit beyond the guilt that’s either self-imposed or sometimes as we’ve been saying, imposed on us by others. Instead, look at these life moments and ask ourselves, as you said T.H., what can I teach my kids in this moment? How do this moment and this experience add to the things, the values, the ideas, and really the toolbox that I want to impart to my kids so that they too will be able to face change when life brings them change and to do so with a sense of groundedness, authenticity, as we’ve been talking about, and integrity? My story has a little bit of a different twist to it because after I separated from my husband, I came out, and I’m now married to my wife with whom I’ve been for almost 20 years. That added another dimension to the experience of my children, but I want to tell you this story. My kids, and I have four children, and they’re now adults, but they were always when they were young, throwing these wild and crazy questions at me. Is God Jewish? What color is gravity? And there have been so many different kinds of questions that I’ve had to respond to. Sometimes I’m really surprised by what I managed to say, and other times I’m completely dumbfounded. I’m wondering along with them, what color is gravity? Does gravity have a color? Anyway, we would always have these raucous family dinners, oftentimes at our Shabbat table, but really anytime where we–we’re very clear, my wife and I, we’re very clear with the kids that there’s nothing you can’t talk to us about. They’re no questions you can’t ask us. There’s nothing we’re not prepared to talk to you about honestly, and hopefully, productively. One night, we’re sitting at the table, and of course, we had guests there. My oldest said to me, mom, do you identify as lesbian or bisexual? And everybody kind of stopped. On the one hand, I froze, but on the other hand, I’d been waiting for him to ask me this because my kids were really little when my husband and I separated. She also had two kids, two girls, and I have three boys and a girl. I have three boys and a girl so instantly we were the modern Brady Bunch family without Mike and without the bell bottoms. But we knew that the most important identity that we were going to wear and live for our kids as same sex partners was going to be the most stabilizing role that we continue to play, of course, as mothers. I thought about my son’s question, and I thought he might be asking, well, what does it mean to have a parent who was once straight and who’s now gay? Can people really change like that as adults? What does it mean for an adult to be one person I thought they were, and then all of a sudden, they’re another person? And I started to think about how and when to talk to kids about gender and about sexuality, but then I started to hear his question from the perspective of a child of divorced parents. I started to understand that what he might be asking me is what does it mean to have parents who are divided from each other now? What does it mean to have parents who are so different from each other now, that maybe when they were together, they weren’t even solidly together? Does that mean that I wasn’t conceived from love?

Jessica: Right, did you ever really love dad?

Adina: Right, did you ever really love dad? And as a child of divorce, I remember looking at other people’s parents who were affectionate with each other and being so envious. The only bond I saw from my parents was one filled with conflict and hostility. My kid, he may be asking exactly that, Jessica, right? Behind the question of whether I’m lesbian or bisexual might be who was I when I brought him into being? Was I fully devoted to dad? Or was I pretending to be somebody that I wasn’t? I realized that the way I engaged with these questions as a parent for my kids might actually shape the contour of their own emotional lives, their own social lives, their own relationship values, their own sexual life, so I had to really think carefully about how to answer. When I brought it up with them again and I answered, I explained to him that in my own life, struggling to understand who I was, what I wanted from relationships, throughout my childhood, I had lots of boyfriends throughout high school and college, and I genuinely cared about the people that I went out with. When I met dad, I genuinely loved him and I could see building a life with him and creating a family, and that’s what we set out to do. But 12 years later, and four awesome kids later, we began to be different people and want different things. We realized that we were no longer the right life partners for each other, and it was heartbreaking. Then I said to him that now while I’m married to a woman, I’m in a relationship that’s really well suited to me, it doesn’t mean that when I was married to dad and we were creating our family that I was pretending to be somebody that I wasn’t. I wanted to be there at that time as I want to be here where I am now. But you were born of love, and you will always be as you always have been, loved by me and by dad. And there it was.

Jessica: That is so poignant because, despite the sexual identity part of that story, the truth is that question could be any kid of divorce asking any parent. It doesn’t matter that I was straight and am straight. My kids could also still wonder what was going on during that time. T.H.’s kids could be thinking the same thing. Anyone out there listening, this is definitely something to maybe talk to your children about because they very likely are having those exact kinds of questions. What was really happening behind the scenes when you guys were together? How long? Was it good? And how long were you pretending?

Adina: It’s the question behind the question. It’s trying to understand what our children are taking away from this moment and being able and willing to talk with them about that, to provide them the assurances that they need, to help them distinguish between what love in this world is conditional and what love in this world is unconditional, to reassure them that you know the difference and that they will be the beneficiaries of that difference, that unconditional love between a parent and a child. No, I will never divorce you.

T.H.: When I went with my ex-husband to someone to figure out how to communicate with the kids, and so on and so forth, she said the way to explain it to the kids was you’re a part of me. You’re literally a part of my body, which blows my mind anyway. I still can’t believe we give birth to humans, but anyway, that you can’t break that. You just can’t break that. But your dad and I were two individuals who met and fell in love and started a family, and all that stuff, but he’s not a part of me like that. Your dad and I are part of you physically, biologically, everything. You’re born from us, so that kind of love just can’t be broken. I don’t know if they really believed it, but we did go with that, and so far so good.

I want to say one other quick story though because you’re talking about bringing somebody else into the picture, into your kids’ lives. My ex was with another woman who he had been with for quite some time. My son came home from his dad’s to my house and said I want to call her mom. This is like right before bed. Okay, so everybody just listens to that, right? Your kid wants to call another woman mom, other than you. I don’t know how I did it, but I did take a deep breath. I said I’m your only mom. I birthed you. You’ve got one mom, and we can think of a lot of other great names for her, but mom belongs to me. It’s really hard. I know you were never predicting these kinds of questions, just like the kind that Dini’s bringing up, was I born from love? Like, holy shit, we’re all just trying to keep it together, and now you’ve got to throw this at me? Seriously, is this not good enough? But I would say to anybody, if your kids come to you with questions, just take a deep breath. If you’re not ready to answer it, say, you know what? I promise we’ll talk about this. I’m not ready to talk about it at this moment. I want to think about how I want to answer your question so that I’m really listening to you and you feel heard. Because right before bed, at the end of the day, he was four, and I was like, what?! Oh, and I was working full time. Everybody just wants the kid to go to sleep. But just take your time in answering questions and be honest, as Dini said. You know what, guys, I’m so tired. I don’t want to give you the wrong answer. Let’s talk about it in the morning.

Adina: That’s really wise. That’s really wise. I want to push one step further on that story T.H., because my heart just when you shared that question, that’s really tough. But I wanted to say that as much as what we’re all getting at is the different ways of saying that authenticity and one’s personal truth evolve over the course of our lives, which is not to say that any of us are hypocrites, shallow, or superficial. Life changes, we change, and the authenticity we seek shouldn’t be confused with consistency, right? Consistency is not the measure of authenticity.

T.H.: Will you say that one more time?

Adina: I think what I said was that in our search for our own truths, and for our own integrity and authenticity, we have to understand that those evolve over the course of our lifetimes, the way life itself is constantly evolving. The definition of authenticity is not consistency. I can still be who I am in my heart and my soul, and love you if the contours of my life might evolve and shift and change.

I was trying to teach that. I was trying to put that tool in my kid’s toolbox when I also like you took a beat and breathed and thought for a day before coming back to that question. But here’s the other piece that I have had to learn over the last 20 years, and that has been one of the hardest for me personally. As much as I want my children to trust in my love and presence in their lives within my ongoing evolution as a human being, I need to trust theirs too. And so as I watched my children develop very close and loving relationships with their stepmother, as I felt those pangs and had to wrestle through them, and sometimes came up with all the wrong answers, and sometimes behaved in a really shitty way that I shouldn’t have, and I own that, I had to learn to trust them too. That as much as my love for them is unconditional as I’ve tried to teach them, I had to learn to trust that their love for me as their one and only mom is equally unconditional.

T.H.: That’s hard.

Jessica: Yeah, but it’s a great lesson for everyone to hear because we all deal with that to a certain extent regardless of the circumstances, whether the new stepmother is someone who’s already a part of our kids lives, as in our situations, or someone who a stepmother is introduced a few years later and then they develop a special bond with them. It’s definitely something that the majority of divorced people have to contend with because our lives do move on, and we meet new partners, and we bring them into our kids’ lives. I know we’re running a little long, but I feel like there’s a part of the conversation that we have to at least touch on and we can pick up in a future conversation. But for people who regardless of their religion, really feel bound in this cage of being forced to stay married, and divorce is not an option for religious reasons one way or another, and who would come to you for guidance, how can you help someone reconcile they have this faith that they’ve been raised with, and is ingrained in them, and is so deep in them, yet they want to defy this one major portion of it with something so important? How do they make peace with that?

Adina: It’s such a huge question.

Jessica: I know. I know.

Adina: No, it’s incredibly important, because what you’re pointing out is that there are so many different factors that go into our decision-making and so many pushes and pulls that strain our hearts and our souls. And of course, I can’t speak for another religious tradition, but I can say this, and I say this as someone who is a huge believer in religious pluralism, in theological humility, who has staked my own faith system and my professional career on the importance of recognizing the interconnectedness of all faiths and of the human family in spite of the different narratives in which we live our lives, it’s really helpful for me to distinguish between religion and spirituality.

I think spirituality it’s a tough word, but it’s often used as the catch-all word that tries to describe the sense of connectedness that we either seek or feel we have with, whether it’s God, the source of life, the indivisible oneness that unites us all, the sense of connectedness to that which is greater than us, to the essential holiness or meaning or purpose in life. Religion, to me, is the humanly constructed infrastructure of rituals and traditions and stories and holidays within which we try to live that relationship and within which we try to build relationships with others who are living their spiritual identities within that cultural construct or religious construct. Sometimes those constructs can be really limiting. Look, I grew up in the orthodox community in Montreal. There was no way that time that I could achieve my aspirations of becoming a religious leader in an orthodox community, which did not accord women opportunities for equality or leadership. I had to leave home in order to come home to myself, and that was extraordinarily painful. I don’t wish that journey on anyone, but I would try to divorce in a positive sense. A human being’s understanding of their relationship to the divine from the communal norms and standards that in any setting give shape to that relationship. Sometimes we have to face the very painful choice of seeking a community that better embraces and honors the fullness of who I am and understands that if I need to disassemble some of the structures that I thought would give my life shape and meaning for the long haul in order to reassemble ones that will allow me to live more fully in relation to the people and the beliefs that I feel are so sacred. That is not an act of betrayal. If anything, that should be seen as an act of profound loyalty, painful, but loyal. Sometimes there are ways to push against the boundaries that a community has set. Sometimes that agitation has actually caused communities to reconsider the boundaries within which they can contain people’s lives and their narratives. I have found in many circumstances that when you put a personal face on an issue when you’re able to take a human story and illuminate a particular struggle that is responded to in one way by a legal code, it changes everything. I would just say that I think that our religious traditions and many, many, many of our religious leaders are far more capable of living within the gray of human life, of having the courage and the creativity to embrace life’s fluidity as opposed to life’s binary choices of either you’re good or you’re bad, you’re in or you’re out than we often give them credit for. I take no more pride than when I’m able to help a person stay connected to and sustained by the values and the beliefs and the traditions that have animated them and to show them how they can stay accompanied, rooted, and loved through it all.

Jessica: That was beautiful, and I think a perfect place to pause because we definitely have to pick up this conversation. I think that aspect of it is definitely something to revisit. There are obviously a lot of different faiths out there and a lot of people struggling with whether or not they can and should or should have gotten divorced based on the religion and the faith that they are a part of. I think that there’s something really comforting in the words that you just spoke. I hope that other people felt the same thing. Thank you so much for today.

Adina: Thank you.

Jessica: It’ll be the first of many with Rabbi Adina Lewittes. We really appreciate your time. Everyone out there, there will be an exEXPERTS page on our website with all of Dini’s information, and the congregation she’s affiliated with, and her words of wisdom. Feel free to visit that. You will be hearing more from her again very soon. Thanks, Dini.

Adina: Thank you. Thank you T.H. and thank you, Jessica.

T.H.: Thank you so much, Dini. I feel so uplifted and so validated, I guess are the two words that I feel right now. Thank you for that.

Adina: Thank you. Hope to see you again soon. Stay well. Stay loving.

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