FULL TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to another episode of the exEXPERTS DIVORCE etc… Podcast where we give you all kinds of information and tips on everything divorce. Why? We’ve lived it, so we get it! We’re T.H. & Jessica. 

T.H.: Welcome, everyone to Divorce etc…podcast. We are the exEXPERTS. Today, we’re thrilled to have Margaret Josephs here. She is a TV personality and entrepreneur and the co-host of this awesome podcast, Caviar Dreams, Tuna Fish Budget, which looks like it started in 2020. Maybe that was a little bit of a COVID experiment like ours ended up being. Welcome to our show.

Margaret: Oh, thank you so much, T.H. and Jessica. Thanks for having me on.

T.H.: So let’s get started. I mean, first, everyone’s going to want to know about Real Housewives, and then we’re going to talk about you and the podcast. But were you a fan of the show before you joined the show?

Margaret: The funny thing is I really watched New York more than I watched New Jersey. I watched the first two seasons of Jersey, and then Joe and I were watching New York. I watched Miami when it was on. I was watching other franchises. But of course, obviously, I enjoyed everything Bravo.

T.H.: Right. Right. Right. And then when you join the show, was it what you expected?

Margaret: No, it’s nothing like I expected. I really thought it was scripted. When I got on the show–listen, I had a bad hit. I probably wouldn’t have gone on the show if my business didn’t take a bad hit. I had a horrible lawsuit. But it was great timing. My kids were out of the house, Joe and I had just moved to this house in Englewood, and I was like, it’s a great boost for the business. But when I got on it, it happened so quickly. I was like, oh, this has to be scripted. People really don’t fight like this. I thought it was part acting, part reality. Well, I learned immediately that was not the case at all. It is real emotions. People are so different that you really just…familiarity breeds contempt.

Jessica: How were you approached to be on the show? Were you already friends with some of the girls then? Or do the friendships only really develop once you were on?

Margaret: The friendships really developed once I was–T.H., because she’s from there, she knows Siggy was in our area. We had lived around the corner from each other when I lived in Tenafly. We knew of each other. We were in the same kind of a little bit of a social circle on the outskirts. We were acquaintances. She was nobody I’d really want to associate myself with. I’m going to be completely honest, she’s not my people. But we were friendly enough. So it was a connection enough.

Jessica: The purpose of going on the show, it sounds like because you figured it’d be great PR for your business. Were you worried at all about your personal life just completely becoming exposed and dissected and discussed all over the place?

Margaret: You know, it was twofold, because I felt like it was complete PR, and I was like, also it’s a different perspective of a different kind of Jersey woman. Even though Dolores was divorced, I was divorced, I remarried, I had a business, I was self-made, self-supported, so I was like, alright, it’s a different spin on Jersey. I thought it was a combo. Yes, and of course, I was a little concerned my life would be dissected. But I didn’t realize how conservative a lot of people are. I didn’t think it would be as brutal when I first got on.

T.H.: Oh my gosh.

Jessica: Which parts do you feel that people were brutal about? How you and Joe got together, the affair and stuff?

Margaret: I wanted to get ahead of it. I was like, obviously, everybody’s going to ask how you met your husband. So I was like, immediately, I’m going to say that I was not in a happy marriage. I did have an affair. I met my husband through an affair. I wanted to be completely candid and be forthright that is what happened. But people, if you have an affair, they act like you murdered somebody. Literally, it’s worse than drunk driving. It’s worse than going to jail. It is the worst thing that you could do to anybody. That was very rough. I was actually very surprised. And I was so candid about the hurt I had because two of my stepchildren at the time weren’t speaking to me. I was so forthright about that. But people, brutal.

T.H.: Tell us a little bit about your family. Just you were talking about stepchildren, so your first marriage was a blended family?

Margaret: Yeah, my first marriage, I was 24 years old when I had moved to Tenafly, which we all know is a great town right outside of New York City. My ex-husband, who I love dearly, was 44 at the time. He had full custody of three children who were 8, 14, and 16. I moved in with him. I was working full time. It’s a beautiful life in Tenafly. We had a housekeeper, we’d go summer in the Hamptons, and my kids went to sleep-away camp. We had a beautiful family, and then I had my son, who’s now 25. We had a beautiful blended family. They rarely saw their biological mother, maybe once a year, so they’re really my kids. But I was a young girl.

T.H.: I was going to say that sounds really overwhelming for a young girl to come into. I mean, it’s overwhelming for anybody, but especially being that age.

Margaret: Yes. Coming into a town, and I think if people know what our town is like, it’s a fast-moving judgmental suburb of New York City. I was friends with women who were 20 years older than me because my first set of kids was older. And there I am, 24, and I’m socializing with a woman who’s 44, and that’s who I’m going out with on the weekend. But I still have my friends from New York City who are in their 20s, and I’m trying to convince them to move to our area, which I did convince one of my best friends, who’s no longer one of my good friends, to move to the area. It was a very interesting thing, but I went along with it. I mean I was going to bar mitzvahs in my twenties and doing this and doing that, and then I did a round two of with our son and everything else. But then, as happens in some marriages, we grew apart. I grew up. I grew into a different woman and what I wanted out of life. I changed, and things happened. I still consider it a successful marriage, it’s just we went in different directions.

T.H.: Well, Jessica and I both married around–Jessica was even younger. I got married at 25. We got married at basically the same time within a month of each other. We traveled together and all this great stuff. Our husbands did cheat on us to different extents, so we understand. For me, the cheating wasn’t what ended my marriage. That was the day my freedom kicked in. But my marriage was over way before that happened. That’s something I think people really need to think about. We’ve spoken to many women who have been in that position, many men who have been in that position, and we are on the receiving end of it. The truth is the marriage obviously wasn’t working if it got to that point.

Margaret: Were you unhappy? Can I ask you ladies each a personal question? Were you unhappy before you found out about it?

T.H.: I was miserable. I was suffocating. I literally told her, when she called me that day, that she saved my life.

Margaret: The woman called you?

T.H.: Oh yeah.

Jessica: We both got phone calls. But for me, I actually thought that I was still in a happy marriage. We still got along in a lot of ways, and things were still good in a lot of ways. But over the years, I mean, we both got divorced 14 years ago, so over the years, I definitely can look back now and see that, no, I wasn’t as happy as I was once I got out. What I thought was interesting about the affair for my husband, and I don’t know if this has been your experience at all, but so many people were bad-mouthing her to me. I was like, I don’t know, I blame him more than I blame her. The idea of the other man or the other woman, I’m like, I don’t know why anybody has that perspective at all. It’s between us. I don’t know if that was part of what you said in terms of people being judgmental, but I kind of never understood. I’m like, that woman did not break up my marriage.

T.H.: Right. She wasn’t responsible for your family. He was.

Margaret: Except that I got that a lot at the time when I went on the show. You’re a homewrecker.  You ruined two homes.

You did this.” No one said one thing about Joe, by the way, I might add. He’s like a little saint. Women like you lure men–we were both in unhappy marriages. Like I was saying, I had a beautiful family, as unhappy as I was. My ex-husband had blinders on. We still talk about it to this day. It’s very funny. I was with him last night, actually, with my son, and we went to dinner. We are very, very close. We still see things very differently. He still thinks we can–

T.H.: And that’s fine. But the fact that you can come together and do that, that won’t happen for me. We handle business. We actually have my daughter’s graduation coming up, and it’s going to be a fun-filled packed weekend with my parents and his wife and their baby. We’re going to do what we do when we’re together, but it would it would be so much easier if it was authentic.

Margaret: Yes, I know. I know–

T.H.: It hurts when it’s not. It’s a little hard.

Margaret: Of course. I know exactly what you’re saying. And there’s still pain. I still miss, and Joe knows this, listen, I had the best family Sunday dinners. My kids, my step kids, and my son, I didn’t look at them as my step kids, we had the most amazing life, and everybody was the life of the party. That part was so beautiful.

Things change, and I still have an amazing family, but in a different way. But my son’s with us, and Joe’s kids with us, but we’re not always all together because some of my step kids – one lives in California now, and–everybody’s disconnected. That part didn’t get held together, because I held it together. So that’s what’s so upsetting. And I do miss that.

Jessica: I’ve been divorced twice now. I have very amicable relationships with both of them. I’m really good friends with both of them. I totally relate to still hanging out with him and the kids and doing things together, because I do that.

I’m curious, what about your divorce and the way you handled it would you say you’re the proudest of it?

Margaret: The proudest of and most upset about is, truthfully, I didn’t fight for anything. I did everything to make life easy. I did it for my son. So I was the proudest about that. I didn’t want to do anything that was going to put him in an uncomfortable position. I sacrificed everything. I was like, nothing’s worth fighting about. Alright, you want the whole house? You got the house. I’ll move out. I’ll do this. I just did everything to make my ex-husband’s life easier, because it made for a smooth transition, and it made it easier for all the kids. That was the proudest of. In hindsight, I was doing so well in my business, and I didn’t know I was going to have such a setback in certain things. I was like, wow, I didn’t do right by myself. I did right by everybody else, but I didn’t do right by myself. So it’s a funny feeling. What I’m the proudest of, I’m also like did I do the right thing by myself?

Jessica: I totally get it. We have these conversations a lot, T.H. and I. Even though we had similar situations leading to the divorces, our divorces were totally different. We were just guesting on someone else’s podcast recently, and I was saying, I know I left money on the table, but the relationship that I wanted to have with him for the benefit of myself and for my kids was worth not fighting over certain things. So, yes, I’ve gone through some things that would be really helpful to have a little bit more cash on hand right now. But at the same time, I’m like, my vision of what our relationship and what our new family dynamic was going to be turned out to be just what I wanted it to be, to be able to spend holidays together and to be able to hang out together and not have any tension and stuff. At the end of the day, I feel that was worth whatever I didn’t take it at the time, for me.

Margaret: You’re absolutely right. Yes, and I felt like that’s what I was doing. That’s why when two of my stepkids were just…that wasn’t even enough–but they had issues from when their mom and dad broke up the first time. 

T.H.: Of course.

Margaret: And I think they felt so abandoned, like, oh my god, the woman I’ve known and has been with me for so long. They were in their early thirties and late twenties when I left.

Jessica: Right, so they had a different opinion.

T.H.: I know, but still, there are kids who are older. When I was first telling one of these kids about exEXPERTS and our purpose and everything, he’s 28, and we were at a party where everyone was drinking, so he definitely had liquid courage, and he came up to me and he goes, don’t forget the kids. When you do this, and you’re supporting women, don’t forget the kids. We have stuff to say. We want to share. And so he’s twenty-something years old, but I feel even for my kids, when it comes to the divorce, they’re eight years old again, or 10 years old again. The maturity around the situation was traumatic for them. I was so happy to be out of my marriage. I was ready to fly. Except I had an eight, six, and four-year-old, and we were going to build in Tenafly. It was like a shit show. I had to get back in town, rent a house, and make sure they were okay. I wanted to run, except that I had three little ones that were like, whoa, what’s going on? What do you mean I’m packing a bag? What do you mean I’m not seeing you for three days? It’s definitely conflicting. So I hear you with your kids and with your son and your step kids. I mean, even experts that we interview now, the first thing they say is “I’m a child of divorce”. They’re in their fifties. I think that’s something that’s forever going to have an impression. 

Margaret: And I always say, to stay together and see an unhappy marriage, what is that teaching our children? Are we going to tell our kids to sacrifice their happiness for the sake of someone else? You’re not valued. You don’t matter. Everybody just suck it up. Your feelings aren’t valid. That’s what we’re teaching. They’re seeing a bad relationship.

I was like I don’t want my kids, my son especially because he was the youngest one at the time when I finally moved out, he was 15, about to be 16, this is not how a man and woman should operate, yelling and screaming. I didn’t want him to see that. That was an unhealthy relationship.

T.H.: Agreed.

Margaret: That was no way to live.

T.H.: I think my kids understand. Infidelity is the tip of the iceberg. They understand why that dynamic wasn’t going to work. But the dream is always going to be there. Maybe we can all be together. But practically, they understand now and they’re mature enough. But as soon as you go there, it’s a pain point that goes right into their gut.

Margaret: I know.

Jessica: But they all handle it so differently. Mine was so little and they don’t know life any differently. My kids were two and four. I don’t think that they actually really have any dreams that we’re going to get back together. But I can tell that when we are all together, it is the most relaxed and the happiest that I see them. I’m so glad that I maintained that relationship. But I always joke around I’m never going to really know how fucked up my kids are until they’re in their thirties in therapy themselves. But we both totally agree with you, the idea that people will stay in miserable marriages “for the kids”, we think that that’s just–I mean, everyone has certain circumstances, so there may be much deeper things, but overall, it’s not a good thing to model to your kids. Because then you really are showing them an unhealthy dynamic, and they deserve to see their parents happy. I always say seeing two parents divorced, living in separate households happy is a hundred times better than being miserable and living in the same household. So I totally agree. But it makes me wonder then, back to the show. 

Margaret: Yeah, we’re going to talk about that because I want to go back to that, guys.

Jessica: Do you feel who you are on the show, what people see, is actually who you are? Do you feel like it’s your real authentic self?

Margaret: I think it’s my authentic self. Sometimes I think you don’t see as much as the soft side of me because you don’t get to see me with my kids. That’s the unfortunate part. But they’re all adults and they’re like, we want no part of this show. And they’re very private. So you don’t get to see that side of me. But I think I am brutally honest. I do say how it is. People are like, you’re cold. I’m not cold. I’m hardcore.

T.H.: They’re watching you on TV. I mean, it’s amazing that people know you.

Margaret: Yes, I mean, I’ve had the same friends since kindergarten. I have the same people in my life. But I am not a smoke blower. So I do feel you get the authentic Marge. I think you don’t see every facet because certain things I do have to keep private to myself–

Jessica: Sure.

T.H.: Of course.

Margaret: –and I don’t need the world to see, because I have to protect it. The other thing, we’re dealing with it now on the show, which I did reveal infidelity about another cast mate’s husband. It wasn’t about the infidelity, which I tried to explain. It was really about hypocrisy because she had the loudest voice of judgment.

Jessica: Towards you?

Margaret: Towards me.

T.H.: Oh yeah, but that’s usually how it is. The people who have the loudest voice usually have significant issues of their own, and they’re just putting it on you.

Margaret: And she put it very bad on me and my mother. I mean, listen, I was very honest about my mother. I wrote it in my book. She was a single mother in the ‘70s. She had married boyfriends. She had her own issues. I wasn’t bragging about it. I was being honest about it. I was honest about my sexual harassment. This woman, Jennifer, I don’t even care–she diminished it. She said I slept my way at the top, really horrible things. She never apologized for that part and really made it out like I said it wrong. It just was very horrible. She could have called me off camera after the end of last season.

T.H.: Absolutely.

Margaret: She went very aggressive on social media after that. I was like I’m going to give her an opportunity. But the truth is her husband has stepped out on their marriage. It is common knowledge. She says it’s not and that I dug it–I didn’t dig it up. I knew it before she had gotten on the show. Everybody talked about it. Because when you’re going on the show, everybody talks about your dirty laundry.

Jessica: Right!

Margaret: Everybody. Everyone was like, Margaret’s coming on the show. She fucked the contractor and had a lawsuit. That’s the way it is. So if you’re going on the show–

T.H.: Oh my god.

Jessica: You have to be ready for it.

Margaret: Yeah, I knew when she was going on the show everyone’s like oh, she’s married to a plastic surgeon. She built her house to get on the show. Her husband banged the office manager and lost his job. Fact. I never knew about the pharmaceutical rep. I don’t care. That’s not the point. I’m happy they worked it out and everything else. It’s very apparent that she never dealt with it on the show, but she was so ready to blame the woman and project all her feelings onto me. My marriage has nothing to do with her. She buried her emotion and everything like that. That’s not on me.

T.H.: It’s easier. It’s easier for her to do that. It’s always easier than to look at yourself. I mean, my responsibility for my marriage failing is that I allowed someone to treat me the way he treated me. I allowed really bad behavior in front of my kids too. But for me, I mean, I’m a strong woman. How can I let somebody break me down like that? But I did. And that certainly will never ever happen again.

Margaret: Exactly. You’ve learned from it, and you’ve moved on. That is the exact same–and I said to her, that’s the hypocrisy. Don’t pretend you’re happy. Don’t chastise me and defend this man and put him on a pedestal when he has the exact same behavior. That’s really what it was.

Jessica: How has it been going? How is the reaction to that?

Margaret: People are like she hates women like you because you’re the home wrecker.  No, her husband is. She has to have the same energy for her husband. If you’re saying he made a mistake, then I could be forgiven. It’s the same thing. I made a mistake. Don’t have that energy. He can’t be this, his career goes on, and everything’s buried, because it’s the good of your family, and you’re so fiercely protecting your family and everything else, but you’re so ready to crucify me. My life has nothing to do with you.

Jessica: And so do you feel those kinds of things and the dynamics of that that are happening on the show, when you’re not filming and you’re not necessarily with those girls, do you feel any of that is seeping into your real life? Or are you able to compartmentalize and turn it off?

Margaret: Well, a lot of those women I am friends with. You do become very–well obviously, I don’t socialize with Jennifer, and right now Teresa’s not even talking to me, but that’s a whole other thing because I was brutally honest about something else, but I do see Melissa, Jackie, and Dolores a lot outside the show. We socialize and we eat dinner together.

So I do feel like it (the Real Housewives of New Jersey on Bravo) does seep into your life because it becomes your life because it’s a job, but you do form strong bonds, especially when you’re on a show together for a number of years. I’ve been on it for five years.

Jackie’s been on it four years. Jennifer and I can never bond because she’s always had that thing against me. She’s always had snide comments. I also think it’s not only did she project that I was the other woman, she probably saw that my husband left his wife for someone else, and she probably always thinks in her head that it’s very symbolic her husband could have walked out of the door on her.

Jessica: She was afraid of you because she knew what it meant in her own life, and she didn’t want to face it. But even the show as a job, tell us how you are managing–you’re running a hugely successful business separately–

Margaret: Yeah, I’m going to come back–

T.H.: Yeah, we want to talk about the business–

Jessica: The podcast.

T.H.: We love you being so authentic–

Margaret: Thank you.

T.H.: –and original. We are all about that. We’re also really all about moving forward. You definitely have done that. The thought of reinvention is not really it. It’s kind of like rediscovery like you’re discovering new–we discover new things about ourselves all the time, especially coming from divorce or whatever, any kind of shift in your life plan. We are big fans of that. I also want to hear about the podcast. Caviar Dreams, Tuna Fish Budget is, first of all, a rock star title.

Margaret: Thank you.

T.H.: And were you and Lexi friends before you did the show? Or did you start as working?

Margaret: No. It’s funny, Lexi, I always say she’s like my little sister. We’re both only children. She’s worked for me for 13 years already in my business. Really, she runs my whole business. We decided to do the podcast together because we really did start on a caviar budget. I started very, very small. I never knew the business was going to take off. She was really there for me. 

Jessica: Just really quickly for people listening, who don’t know all of your background, you’re talking about the Macbeth Collection?

Margaret: Yeah, the Macbeth Collection. A lot of people have never heard of it because we sell to the masses. It was really a lifestyle brand. I used to only sell the high-end. It sounds so crazy. We did these decoupage buckets. I don’t know if you T.H. or Jessica ever saw them?

Jessica: We have.

T.H.: Yes.

Margaret: We were all over the Hamptons, we were on Oprah’s Favorite Things, we were literally everywhere. You could monogram them. You could do this. And then I got into licensing because we designed our own prints and patterns. We were very preppy. We started licensing out our brand to different companies to make different products. We were the first women in female tech accessories. So before printed iPhone cases took off, we were doing that in 2000, and…was it 11? So 2011 is 11 years ago, basically, and that really wasn’t popular then. We were the first female brand in Walmart, a big tech accessory line. We were doing $10 million a year in Walmart. I mean, that was huge. I was getting a small percentage of that, but I was making a lot of money.

T.H.: I just want to pause one second so everybody can hear what she’s saying that she did. Margaret went to FIT. She’s super creative, she found something that she loved to do, and she blew it up. And it was fantastic. People at this point, especially with COVID, are trying to figure out what to do. And then the divorce, and what if I’ve never worked? Find something you love, and then it won’t be work. It’ll just be a pleasure. I just wanted to stop and say that.

Margaret: And it was. It was for pleasure. It wasn’t about the money at first. I was working with my ex–my ex-husband helped me out, and he lent me money. We did the business together. Lexi and I like to say, really, the fun times were when we had no money. We loved doing it. It was just we were up all night designing, and then we’d be eating at the diner at three in the morning, and then we’d have to set up for a trade show. We just had such good times. It was about the hustle and getting the orders and the sales and getting the press and looking like a bigger company. Then when we got to the next level, I was like, oh my god, we are licensing, and we’d be traveling. We really manifested a great life for ourselves, and amazing things happen. Then I had met Joe and my marriage fell apart. I was like, we’re going to get through this and that worked out. But listen, then I had a horrible hit to my business. One of my licensees did something, and I was on the hook for it with Vineyard Vines. Very bad. I mean, and it caused–how do I call it? What is that?

T.H.: A ripple effect?

Margaret: A ripple effect. Thank you! A ripple effect. My bank account was frozen from business, and I couldn’t pay the employees, I couldn’t do this, I could do that, and I was like, shit, I have to file a business bankruptcy to unfreeze the account. It was a business move. 

T.H.: Which is humbling. Very humbling.

Margaret: Humbling is not the word when you have to account to a trustee why you’re paying this bill and why you’re paying that bill. It’s very humbling, but I did it. Then Joe and I had just got this house, and a few weeks later I got on the show.

Jessica: The timing really worked out perfectly.

Margaret: Yeah, it worked out perfectly, but that’s why there was so much dirty laundry about it too. But I wasn’t shamed really, because I was like, this is what happened. This is business. I built it up, I could do it again.

Jessica: Right. Also, I mean, I’m a huge believer in everything happens for a reason, and everything ends up working out the way that it’s supposed to. Sometimes you can’t see that at the time. Then, later on, all the pieces fall into place. It could be years later. But now how has the show–would you say the show totally revived the business?

Margaret: I wouldn’t say it revived the–it’s helped me have a different perspective on the business and see what is important and hyper-focus on different things. It’s such a big word in COVID, pivot.

Pivot things and see what’s important.

Some licensees fell off. It helped me focus my energies where I should. We have a great beauty line, brushes, and beauty accessories in Walmart. People are like, she sells to Walmart and she’s low budget. Well, that’s where the money is.

Jessica: Look at Martha Stewart! Give me a break.

Margaret: Exactly. Made for the masses, eat with the classes. I love selling Walmart. That is the best place to be, truthfully.

Jessica: That’s what everybody says.

Margaret: I’m very lucky to be selling at a retailer and have a great brand in there. That’s under my other label, Candy Couture. It’s like the little sister of the Macbeth Collection. Listen, we sell Ross and we sell Burlington, everybody shops in the off-price–and TJMaxx. Those are the people we really sell. And it’s doing well. We’ve just signed some new deals. Because unfortunately during COVID, right when the business was coming back during COVID, people couldn’t get things in because some of my licensees again had fallen off. So now we’re building back up with some new partners and things like that.

T.H.: How do you juggle all of this, the TV show, the business?

Jessica: Right, but also, what’s the intention of the podcast with all of this, juggling all of those things and adding the podcast?

Margaret: We did add the podcast. Lexi and I said let’s do it because people always write to me about business. How did you do it? How are you not afraid? How are you this? And there are so many people like yourself. You guys started this podcast, Divorce etc…It’s just people have a dream. So many people have made their dream come true. There are so many disruptors in different industries that have had nothing and have had success. I think I wanted a podcast that was inspirational to people, and that could really help anybody, once they listen to it, start their own business or change their life trajectory, from every different walk of life, on the podcast. It’s not about pop culture or anything like that, because we have enough of that. We have tons of Bravo podcasts, which are great, that I love to listen to, and things like that. You don’t need me for that. But business things are interesting, are all different careers, and that’s what made Lexi and I start it. We started very strong, then COVID hit, and people were listening to the podcast and things like that. But now that I was back on the show, now we’re only down to twice a month. It was hard for me to keep it up weekly. But we figure we’re doing two solid episodes a month with great guests. Yeah, but we love doing it.

Jessica: Which is all that really matters.

Margaret: Yeah, I mean, that’s what it is. I love talking to people in all different industries. It’s been a lot of fun.

T.H.: It seems like you’re in a great place now.

Margaret: Yeah, I am.

T.H.: And just such good energy.

Jessica: Totally.

Margaret: Thank you.

T.H.: And you’re just confident. Jessica and I, I know we’ve said this many times, but we talk about a lot of things all the time because we talk all day long.

Margaret: Adorable. I love it.

T.H.: It’s just exciting. It just infuses such a good positive energy within you to be around other people like that.

Margaret: I agree.

T.H.: Thank you for doing this with us today and sharing this energy and your experiences. It’s inspiring. Everybody, you know, it’s beyond the show. I mean, I know you’re representing yourself in the show, but everything that you’ve said and we’ve talked about during this podcast is revealing above and beyond. So it’s just very impressive.

Margaret: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I love seeing you guys here. We have to be together outside of this and really sit down. Thank you T.H. and Jessica.

Jessica: We’d love to. Thanks again Margaret for all your time.

Margaret: Thank you.

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