FULL TRANSCRIPT

As much as we like to talk about the silver lining of divorce and ways to have an amicable relationship, there are many people out there who are in situations that can really be harmful for themselves and their kids.

We know to some that some divorce can be dangerous, and part of our mission is how to help those who need to get out of abusive situations and how to identify and deal with coercive control.

0:23

We’re the exEXPERTS, Jessica and T.H.

We help you navigate your divorce and successfully move on with your life.

Let’s bring in today’s guest.

Hey everybody, take a deep breath right now with me because we are going into some unchartered territory that is actually extremely empowering when you hear our guest tell her own story and what she’s done because of it.

0:49

Her name is Courtney Gilmartin, and she is the founder of New Jersey Protective Moms, and she is a contested custody expert.

She’ll explain more about what all that means, but let’s just get right into it.

Welcome Courtney to our show.

1:06

Thank you for having me, I’m excited to be here.

We have a lot to talk about with you, and so I’m just going to let you kick it off honestly.

Tell us about you.

So I am a mom of two.

I live in New Jersey and I have been in the trenches of family court for the better part of going on 8 years, so almost a decade.

1:29

When I first, you know, filed for divorce, I did not at all think that I would be sitting here, you know, almost eight years later, but here I am.

So the short version of my story is really that our divorce itself, the divorce litigation was relatively quick considering.

1:46

So we got, I filed for divorce at the end of 2016.

We were divorced in 2017.

I had a great lawyer who, you know, was basically like, listen, you need to get in and out as quick as you can if you want to be unscathed because the more you fight, the more legal bills you’re going to have and the more that’s going to come up.

2:03

So there were some warning flags during the divorce litigation that kind of tipped us off.

Now, looking back that it was going to be pretty litigious, but we were able to come to, you know, a settlement and and get divorced.

So the irony of that is we got divorced on my birthday.

2:19

So that in itself should have been a glaring warning sign of what was to come.

But quickly thereafter, a lot of issues started to pop up.

And most of it was centered around the kids, you know, exchanges or differences in parenting styles or, you know, if I would need to change parenting time because of a vacation or an event with my family.

2:43

I was always met with a ton of resistance and just the degradating language and the personal attacks and, and all of that.

So it escalated.

Can I just ask how long were you married for and how old were your kids when you were getting divorced?

So I was young when we met.

2:59

I was 19 when we met and we got married when I was 21.

Had kids quickly thereafter.

Married nine years and then my daughter was seven and my son was 5 when we got divorced.

OK, so right in the age ranges of which TH and and mine were when we got divorced and and just to to understand when you were getting divorced, like because it sounds like you’re saying you guys, it was like a litigious divorce.

3:27

There was no, it wasn’t mediated, it wasn’t a collaborative divorce.

It wasn’t OK Went to court, OK.

Yeah, there was.

And, and I have a question too.

You got divorced and you know, seem seems like you resolved things quickly.

3:44

Didn’t you have a robust parenting plan as part of your divorce that talks about holidays, vacations, accommodations, all those things?

So even though you had everything written in your agreement, it wasn’t being honored.

Yes.

4:00

I mean, basically we’ve pretty much reconstructed our entire MSA at this point.

You would laugh if I showed you a screenshot of our holiday schedule because there’s literally handwritten notes that are initialed over every single holiday.

And every time there was an issue that required third party intervention with the parenting coordinator or court, we went back and, you know, Scribble scrabbled and made notes.

4:24

So essentially everything we agreed to has been changed along the way just because of ongoing issues.

But I knew that the the issue that I saw with the divorce, and this is what I always tell people is when you’re getting divorced and you’re in a litigious situation, you’re in a Gray area in a sense like that other party has the power to file a motion and ask for temporary support or a temporary parenting plan.

4:50

That’s really hard to walk back from, especially the longer the divorce drags on, right?

So you want to try to come to some sort of an agreement as quickly as possible to get that MSA signed and sealed and then if you absolutely have to go back for modification.

But you know, I am also the minority, so I don’t want to scare people.

5:09

Most people, you know, there’s tons of studies out there on this.

Most people when the divorce, you know, is settled and, and the dust settles, they’re able to work through a majority of their issues.

And that really litigious, that really tense atmosphere tends to dissipate as time goes on.

5:25

I mean, I can look back and remember my lawyer saying like, oh, give him six months, give him a year.

And then, you know, two years came and three years came and four years came and I’m like, I’m still giving him a year and it’s 5-6 years later and we’re still drag out, knock down fights over, you know, my sister’s wedding, for example, I had to file a motion with the court enabled in order to bring my kids to the wedding because it was on his weekend.

5:47

And he was basically like, yeah, you’re not going.

OK.

So that’s the kind of stuff that we’re dealing with.

So when you, so when you started off by saying you or like our entrenched in family court has nothing to do with the fact that you’re a lawyer or anything like that, like your entrenched in family court, this is all your situation.

6:03

And because of your situation, you have become an advocate for others who are potentially struggling in the same ways that you are.

Yeah, because to your point, you know what you said before, like we had this robust parenting plan.

You know, we went to early settlement panels, we went to, you know, two mediation sessions with a mediator and my attorney and his attorney.

6:23

And we worked through all the issues.

And we had a a lengthy parenting plan outlining all the issues that I thought would arise post divorce in our MSA, but nothing seemed to help.

I mean, every single thing was an issue.

Extracurriculars, reimbursements, vacations, passports.

6:41

I mean, I had to have two, two sessions with the parenting coordinator just to get him to sign a passport form.

I mean, everything was a debacle.

I mean, listen, I guess that’s the $1,000,000 question, right?

6:56

Why, why is he like that?

But I mean, has that, was that like indicative of your relationship the whole time?

Is he remarried?

Does he have any other kids?

Like, just help us understand kind of the snapshot of what we’re looking at and why, why he would care so much to try to prevent the kids from coming to your sister’s wedding.

7:16

So looking back, I didn’t realize when we had kids, things got weird and the control really exponentially got worse, right?

And odd things that, you know, I didn’t really register at the time, ’cause everything is a new experience.

And I say this all the time when you’re married, that’s new.

7:33

Normally for my first marriage, you know, that was a new experience.

Me having my, my daughter, that was a new experience.

I’m a first mom.

I don’t know any better.

And then there’s also this family and institutional gaslighting that comes into play where people are like, oh, well, you know, he’s tired and he’s that’s just them and let them go.

7:50

And you know, that’s just how it is.

And people kind of make excuses and they say, and you start to second guess yourself, like even though inside, you know, something is wrong.

So there were signs of control and definitely domestic abuse, not physical ever, but severe, severe emotional and manipulation and the the weird control, a lot of things like that.

8:12

So I read Lundy Bancroft, why does he do that at the end of our marriage?

And that really opened my eyes and I realized he he’s a domestic abuse perpetrator.

You know, I had to really kind of face the music.

And I thought when I left, things would get better because I wasn’t in, you know, the house with him.

8:30

I wasn’t under one roof.

But now the more I know, you know, it’s kind of A2 double edged sword, right?

Like the more I know, the more I understand.

But it’s a really grim reality because and you have someone who’s severely litigious and very confrontational and coercively controlling or abusive, they don’t stop when the relationship ends.

8:50

And he just used the kids as as weapons against me.

So anything he could do to still control my life or impact my life or ruin my day or upset me, he was going to do so.

My sister’s wedding, a passport, I mean you name it, he did it.

I have.

9:08

A well, wait, wait, wait before you, just just so that people understand kind of the definition of coercive control.

Because I think that there may be people out there, like you just said, who are in a similar situation and can’t quite put their finger on it, aren’t 100% sure what it is, what it looks like, how to identify it.

9:26

What does that mean exactly?

So coercive control we now know is really the underpinning of all domestic abuse, right?

Think of it as like the umbrella.

And then you have the offshoots of physical violence, emotional abuse, financial abuse.

All those offshoots are are part of the systemic coercive control.

9:42

So coercive control, Evan Stark said it best.

He said coercive control is the torment and the torture between reportable events.

So if you have, you know, a huge knock down blowout fight, there’s all these other little tiny like death by 1000 paper cuts, as they say, that happens in between that you look back and you’re like, Oh my gosh, that was all going on.

10:01

That’s all systemic control.

It’s really anything that impacts your liberty, you know, questioning where you are disparaging you making those comments like, I don’t really trust your friend.

You really shouldn’t go out with them.

You know, all those tiny zings that just start to really degrade, like degrade and a road away at your personal liberty and, and leaving you so confused.

10:23

That’s all coercive control.

And I know you know, a lot of people use emotional abuse or psychological abuse, but it’s all part of the same larger ecosystem that domestic abuse perpetrators really create.

So, you know, when I got divorced, it was coming at me from all angles.

10:41

You know, he wouldn’t fulfill his financial obligations.

He wouldn’t bring the kids back when he was supposed to.

You know, Thanksgiving, Christmas, any holiday would be imploded because he would do something.

And so it felt like from every angle, any point in which he had access to me, he was doing something that was causing me severe stress.

11:03

I mean, I can’t, I can’t even imagine.

And I, I now like it’s all coming back to me.

Our initial conversation, I think I was pretty much speechless the whole time, but now I have questions.

So do you feel, and this is clearly your opinion because you’ve been in court so long, so many times, is the system not working?

11:23

I mean, how is he entitled to not just through course of control on you?

It sounds like that he’s working the system also.

You have a parent coordinator, you have a lawyer, you have a team.

Like why is this still going on?

11:39

Why is this not shut down?

Yeah.

So I think it’s systemically a problem, right?

Like we have problems with TV.

We have really low rates of conviction.

They plea down, they don’t.

The crimes aren’t, the crimes that they’re punished with aren’t equal to what they do, right?

11:58

That’s a separate conversation.

If we stick to family court itself, does it work?

It works for the vast majority of people.

Most normal, rational people who can go into court come to an agreement.

They don’t have to go back in front of a judge to settle things.

We’re not talking about complex legal issues here, right?

12:13

We’re talking about kids and parenting time.

You should be able to swap a Tuesday and a Wednesday without having you know, it’s $5000 in in lawyer fees, which I’ve literally had to do.

So does it work for the vast for the majority of people who are in situations like me know?

12:30

Absolutely not.

It doesn’t.

We need a better way.

That’s unfortunately just a small subset of people getting divorced.

But when you look at Santa Clara had a really good study on it.

When you look at let’s say it’s like 3 to 7% of people in high conflict situations like mine, they take up like 70 to 85% of the court’s resources.

12:51

So that just that can’t be the way that’s not sustainable.

It’s not scalable for anybody.

And and we need a better way for that for sure.

They have some, like some states, I think Massachusetts has like a track model where depending on how litigious the case is and if there’s domestic violence factors, they’ll put you in different tracks with different judges and different experts to try to help.

13:13

But we need something like that in all the States and we definitely need better ways.

Because to your point, I mean, we’ve had now 2 custody evaluations, just to give you some context, 2 custody evaluations.

We’ve had two PCs, we’ve had two family therapists.

13:28

My kids have all had court ordered therapists.

And now we have a GAL who’s acting like the coordinator of chaos, I call it.

And we both have had, you know, attorneys.

I’m on my second ’cause my first was conflicted out because of all the experts we’ve used.

So it’s just, it’s crazy, the resources, just my family has blown through and there’s so many others.

13:50

And I mean, for example, in 2023, we were in court I think 16 times in front of the judge.

Why?

Why?

It’s just good.

I’m curious at what point and maybe there is no point when a judge would say to him, you don’t, you can’t come back or like you can’t like, like not cutting off his rights, but kind of like dude, like he’s wasting everyone’s time.

14:20

I mean, listen, that’s I don’t know how you know, we’re we’re hearing the side of it, but how does that not happen?

How does it not come to a point where?

But we’re finally like 97% there, I would say so. 97% there of the we.

14:36

Need to knock on wood.

Everybody knock on wood right there.

But no, no, but I’m saying but 97% of the way of the of him being told he can’t keep fighting.

Yeah, yeah, there’s really, there’s nothing really left to fight over.

We’re in a I’m in a good place now, but it shouldn’t take seven years, right?

14:53

It shouldn’t take almost eight years.

It shouldn’t be my kid’s entire childhood, almost.

It shouldn’t have resulted in me having, you know, CPTSD from all the stress and I mean, nearly bankrupting myself.

I mean, the fees I’ve paid and the the the money we’ve spent for everybody to say the same thing is mind boggling.

15:16

And, you know, we got there finally with the judge that we had for three years that was on our case, but she recently left the bench.

So that’s another problem with family court.

The judges, you know, revolve it’s like a revolving door, but she we have a, you know, a good paper trail now and she’s issued some really great orders that really comprehensively outline for our new judge what the issue is, which is a great foundation.

15:41

But again, if I didn’t have the tenacity and the resources and just the perseverance to do what I did, I mean, I, I would have never probably gotten here, you know, write.

Someone in every way.

Right, right, guys.

We’re going to take a very quick pause here and a pivot because we’re going to start talking about dating for a second here.

16:01

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16:26

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16:46

So Courtney, you said in it’s a lot and I and I feel like because there are a lot of questions and and, you know, certainly not to be dismissive at all and this is your situation.

But I also don’t want to like people listening to think like this is the typical norm, which it certainly is not.

17:07

But it’s unfortunately common enough or elements of it are common enough that it needs to be discussed.

It needs to be talked about.

You, you said that the one thing that you wish you knew is that it’s a battle.

It’s a war, not a battle.

Tell us what you mean by that.

17:25

So I think people, you know, it’s like anything, it’s a marathon.

It’s not a Sprint right in the beginning, people kind of go all, all out with their gloves up and ready, you know, just to pulverize their acts.

And that’s just not how family court works.

17:41

Family court works at a snail’s pace.

It’s really slow.

You have to really show over time that this is an issue that can’t be resolved.

And you need, you know, things like sole custody or sole decision making.

Like those are really big decisions that judges have to weigh pretty heavily.

And so, you know, small baby steps.

17:58

And I always say to people, you know, trust your gut, but brace for impact.

Like if you feel as though maybe you need to go the path of least resistance right now or try something different and your lawyer or whomever is in your ear saying whatever, like, you know your ex best, you know, like your case and you really have to prepare for the, the long game and you have to take baby steps.

18:20

And I, I really focus, the one thing I did right was I focused more so on the safety of my kids and the custody piece for the first, for the better part of like the 1st 6 1/2 years.

I didn’t even go into the financial aspect, even though there’s so much egregious financial stuff going on, because people like this tend to really mutter, muddy the waters.

18:39

So they’ll just throw everything at the wall.

And then you go into court and the judge is pissed and they’re overwhelmed and they’re, you know, things get lost in the sauce.

So narrow scope, long game, best approach if you have someone like this.

And I get it, it’s not fair.

It sucks trust me.

18:54

My ex didn’t pay me a single cent since 2016 when we separated.

He would not give me any reimbursement for any extracurriculars.

But I knew if I started to bring that in that it would just muddy everything and get lost and I would lose the traction that I had gained with the custody piece and the the safety of my children.

19:13

So I put that aside until we had the best interests of all done.

And then I, I only recently started to address the financial stuff and it’s been almost eight years, which is crazy.

And, and just so everybody knows, I mean, Courtney is a career woman.

I mean, she has a major career.

19:32

And this is not just another job.

This is this is way bigger than that.

And and I, you know, I definitely had conflict, but nowhere near this because I did have conflict.

19:47

And then it ended when our divorce.

So when you settled, it’s like when I settled and it took time to get there, but it was done.

Yours was faster than mine.

But this is a warning for all of you.

Just like we have talked about litigating and, you know, fighting the fight and, you know, take them for all they got, all that stuff like that.

20:09

You could potentially lead you to where Courtney is if you’re on the other side.

So don’t.

I mean, you don’t want to be in this for eight years and the amount of money every year and every expert in every court appearance brings upon you requires another job to pay for all of that, plus all of your living expenses, plus everything else.

20:34

If you can find a way to find common ground that is reasonable and is not coercive like this, because I feel like a lot of people, you know, they’re like, Oh yeah, Oh yeah, that’s me.

20:49

Just like Courtney, that’s me.

And.

And if you listen back, it’s probably not you.

And yet you don’t want it to be you.

So don’t identify with this, but take some of the things that she’s telling you to help you because regardless of how difficult your divorce is or how easy or negotiating in general, these are all really important tips that you should implement as you Co parent, as you negotiate, as you ask for flexibility in your time, all all of that kind of stuff.

21:25

So I want you to share with everybody what New Jersey Protective Moms is and why you created it.

During the, the past, you know, course of my family court journey, my ex did use, you know, the parental alienation claims successfully.

21:46

The judge who ended up seeing what was going on and really helping my family believed the claims before we had the best interests of Allen, she actually flipped custody and he the kids had to go with him for seven months for five days a week.

And I was only able to see them too.

22:02

So I, you know, instead of pouring gasoline on that fire and, you know, picketing the streets and protesting like a lot of people will do, I was like, well, there’s nothing I can do right now.

This is only temporary.

The truth will come out.

I know that it will.

22:17

And I put all of my energy and resources into, you know, advocating and researching and really trying to understand the larger problem that a lot of protective moms were facing in this state.

And I connected with other moms, and she became very good friends with a mom in New Jersey who was also a victim of DV physical abuse, though in her case.

22:40

And we testified in front of the New Jersey Assembly in favor of the course of control law, which codified course of control as an act of domestic violence in New Jersey.

And we found that we were met with a little bit of resistance from lawmakers.

22:57

And so we thought, we start a nonprofit that focuses on like, community outreach and advocating and awareness and education will probably be met with more, you know, open arms.

And we’ll probably get more.

We’ll probably get farther.

So we created New Jersey Protective Moms.

23:13

We started really amping up our outreach to legislators in favor of the course of control bill.

We testified in front of the Senate and the Assembly, and it ultimately ended up getting passed.

And now we’re working on another law in which New Jersey would be the first state if we can get it passed, but there’s a lot of opposition where we would have a registry for domestic violence perpetrators.

23:34

It’s public facing.

So fingers crossed because we definitely need that for sure.

So can you.

First of all, you’re doing amazing work and, and, and it’s, and it’s a credit to people like you that other people who are coming afterwards will be able to get done or get through it the way that they can.

23:56

I’m like listening to what you’re saying and I’m thinking about, you know, like the founding fathers and like, you know, women back in, you know, the turn of the century who fought for the rights to vote.

And like now look at women voting today.

24:12

Like I feel like you’re one of like these founding.

Pioneer.

Women, right?

Who’s who’s making things happen now for the women who are coming behind you, which is a huge and, and a lot of responsibility.

What teach was mentioning before, you know, talking about tips and how people can get through it.

24:33

So let’s say there are people listening and they’re like, OK, well, so I’m going through some of these similar things.

Like what would you say are your top three tips?

And by the way, like you saying before, that knowing to keep your focus narrow and how that would be able to keep things clear, not muddy the waters, and that you would be more successful that way.

24:54

Like how did you even know that?

Those are the kinds of tips that our community needs to hear.

Just my learned experience going through so many different situations with third parties present with my ex-husband, you know, parenting coordinators, hearings in court, Co parenting therapists.

25:14

I saw that I would raise an issue, a significant issue where I had valid concerns and he would start throwing other things around and we would segue off topic and we’d start talking about something completely different than what we went in there for.

And I’m like, this is just crazy making.

25:31

But that is who he is at his core.

You know, a lot of, you know, we can throw around narcissists, whatever, you know, the vocabulary word of the week is, but that’s what these type of people do, right?

The crazy making, the gas lighting.

So I quickly realized I have to go in with like one or two topics Max.

25:51

And if it’s two topics, they need to be, you know, related in some way.

And I need to keep the focus narrow and just be able to be like, Nope, I’m not going to even address that.

This is what we’re here to talk about because that was really the only way because of just what he would do.

And, and people are so easily sidetracked by someone like that.

26:10

So I always say narrow focus.

It’s again, it’s not fair.

My heart breaks for anybody.

Listen, you think I I couldn’t have used that money?

Of course I could have.

You know, I had to, there were times I had to work two jobs.

I bartended during COVID because I live on the Jersey Shore and the bars outside were the only things open and I needed cash because that I was going through this.

26:31

It wasn’t fair, but I did it, you know, so back to the question, what are the top three things?

So I think so much of, I see so many women, whether they’re in a toxic or abusive relationship or not, we lose so much of ourselves when we get married, right?

26:48

And then when we become moms, we lose even more because we’re always giving.

So if you can find something that you enjoy and really lean into that, it doesn’t have to be advocacy.

You don’t have to go and reach out to legislators or senators.

I would love if you if you would and, and you wanted my help, but it doesn’t have to be that, right?

27:05

If you like needlepoint, if you like going to the gym, if you like working out, if you like going for walks, painting, whatever it is, do one thing that brings you joy.

Reading the small, small, simple things.

It sounds silly, but it’s true.

And then working out for me has always been a great outlet.

27:21

I’m super active.

I I walk almost every day.

I used to run, but it’s just too much for me anymore.

I walk, I go to Pilates, I work out.

It makes me feel good.

It’s healthy for you.

No one could ever say anything bad about working out.

So I do that.

You know, I started gardening, I cook, I try to do things again that I enjoy.

27:39

I learned to surf.

I’ve started playing double S tennis with friends for fun in the league, like just small things that I never had the opportunity to do.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not sitting here saying like, you know, self-care or whatever, ’cause I know some people can’t, don’t have the luxury, but going for a walk for 20 minutes is a form of self-care, right?

27:58

And that’s free.

So that’s my, my best advice, you know, and, and don’t beat yourself up if you want to just lay on the couch and do nothing and watch Real Housewives.

I’ve had days like that too, you know, So when I didn’t have my kids, it was super painful, I’m not going to lie.

28:15

But that’s when I really started leaning in to this legislative stuff and this advocacy it, it gave me a lot of my strength back that had been taken from me from my ex-husband and the family court.

And it really helped to slowly build up my confidence and empower me and, and make me feel good ’cause I felt like I was making a difference.

28:33

And I also was able to connect with other victim survivors and, and I’m able to use them as an outlet to talk through these things and not, you know, word vomit on my friends.

You know, every time I see them, I’m not like, Oh my God, Can you believe this and family court, blah, blah, blah.

28:49

Because you have to have a life outside of that, even though it feels impossible.

Like sometimes I feel like I live a completely different life than everybody.

But I try to reserve the family court talks for my therapist and my my victim survivor friends and not my my real life friends, I say.

29:11

Yeah, we, we do talk about that all the time about finding joy.

I mean it could literally be 5 minutes of quiet out on your deck or whatever with your cup of coffee or it could be an extra 10 minutes in bed.

Whatever it is it, it can be whatever you want it to be.

29:29

I am all about that.

I take a ton of pictures that bring me joy of flowers and water and, you know, whatever it is, whatever The thing is.

So what can people do in their own states to make a difference?

29:45

And if you’re in New Jersey, how can people learn more about what you’re doing and get help for themselves also?

So I obviously my website is new NJ protective moms.org and we have contact, you know, forms on there where you can contact us and get added to our mailing list.

30:04

I’m working on, you know, when time permits to start sending out a newsletter.

I do have a private Facebook group for other protective moms that I can add people to if they request to be added.

And you know, I’m public on Instagram, Courtney Gilmartin, so you can find me there and reach out to me.

30:22

I always try to get back to everybody.

And also if you’re in another state.

So we passed coercive control in New Jersey and it was signed into law in December.

There’s a handful of other states that also have it on the books.

Massachusetts is really close to passing it as well.

30:39

So states like to follow suit with other states.

So you can definitely get momentum in, in your state just by reaching out to your, you know, your local senator or assemblyman.

You know, if, if your constituent, you can definitely reach out to them, e-mail them.

They’ll have assistance, you know, and say, you know, I want to talk to you about this legislation.

30:58

I think it would be helpful.

I’m happy to provide anyone with links to resources if they want.

I can send anyone that needs it.

The PDF version of our bill.

I think our bill is really great because what we thought to get into our bill was a list of behaviors that count as coercive control, intimidation, bullying, harassment, threatening to take custody.

31:20

We got in there, which was huge, a huge personal victory for us because that is a form, of course, of control.

We know that’s how a lot of abusers scare their partners into saying.

So that is also a resource that we wanted in there to help victims.

One of you said it before, you know, like when you’re in it, sometimes you don’t know.

31:38

So we wanted that list.

So if people could read it in black and white, they could be like, Oh my gosh, this is this is me.

I need help.

And then you can pull examples, you know, when you see the list of behaviors there.

So really just starting to starting outreach, you know, that’s what these elected officials are there for.

31:54

They’re there to hear the voice of the voters and and to try to help.

And like I said, they love when other states have it already.

So it’s like monkey see, monkey do.

So now that there’s, I think six or seven states that have it, you’re probably a lot more likely to get some traction in your own state to get it.

32:10

It’s also important for people to know that it’s even out there and it exists as a law because people maybe experience it and have an idea of what it is and not even realize that there’s legislation already around it.

So hugely important for people to know.

I mean, just a really powerful conversation.

32:28

And so Courtney, thank you so much for joining us and sharing all of your expertise in your story with our community.

For everyone listening, if you want to follow Courtney and New Jersey Protective moms, see the show notes for Divorce, Etcetera podcast.

And if you’ve learned something during this episode, we’d be grateful if you’d spend one minute to give us five stars and leaving a quick comment.

32:50

We are on a mission to educate, empower and support anyone touched by divorce so they can make the best choices for themselves and their families.

Your divorce story doesn’t define you, it empowers you.

Just look at Courtney as the perfect example.

Please share this episode with anyone you know who can benefit from listening and have a great day.