FULL TRANSCRIPT – SEASON 2, EPISODE 75
Welcome to another episode of the exEXPERTS’ Divorce etc… podcast, where we give you all kinds of information and tips on everything divorce. Why? We’ve lived it, so we get it. We’re Jessica and T.H. And keep in mind you can get exEXPERTS in your inbox by signing up for our newsletter. Get the latest news and find out all about our events before anyone else, plus, access to special discounts and prices. Head to exEXPERTS.com to subscribe.
Jessica: Welcome, everybody to this episode of the Divorce etc… podcast. We’re super psyched today to have Wendy Lowy Sloane, who is the co-host of the Divorce Doesn’t Suck podcast, and also has her own podcast, What’s Up with Wendy. She obviously has been divorced, and we are going to be talking to her all about what she wishes that she knew, and some great tips and things that you can be looking out for yourself so you can learn through her own experience for your divorce process. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today, Wendy.
Wendy: I’m so happy to be with you guys. I love you girls so much. I’m so happy we connected.
Jessica: Thank you!
T.H.: We knew from the beginning that Wendy was one of us. And “one of us” is divorced and moving forward and positive and full of energy. And so that’s what everyone should aspire to, is to be “one of us”. If you’re stuck, this is where you can land.
Jessica: Don’t you want to be us?
T.H.: No, but where we are. So that’s one of us.
Wendy: It’s where we are now. It’s where we are now. Not that it’s so bad, but you know…
Jessica: Yeah, well, I think that it’s a lot of people trying to get through it. Sometimes, depending on how early you are in the process, it’s so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. You’re covered in this dark cloud. We always like to overemphasize the fact that yes, we’re years out, but everyone will get to that point, and then everyone will recognize they’re so much better on the other side.
Wendy: That’s true. Very true. Very, very true. It takes time, but you’ll get there.
T.H.: Let’s do a little bit of history on Wendy. So tell us quickly, how long were you married? How many kids? How old were you when you got married?
Wendy: Okay, I was 32 when I got engaged, 33 when I got married, 34 when I had my first child, my son – the love of my life, and 35 when I had my daughter – the sunshine of my life, I would say.
T.H.: That’s good.
Wendy: So, a little bit older, a little bit older. I had my career first, and then I felt that I had accomplished everything, and really I wanted to be a mom most of all.
Jessica: Tell us about what your career was.
Wendy: I was a television producer for Phil Donahue and Geraldo Rivera. I had a wonderful, thriving, amazing career in New York City. Those days were like some of the best days of my life literally. I covered the JonBenet Ramsey, which is now all over the news, and the OJ Simpson trial. There’s so many to count. But I was so blessed to have two amazing bosses.
Jessica: Did you keep working once you were married and had kids? Or when did you decide to leave the business?
Wendy: I left the business when I got engaged, pretty much when I got engaged. I was going to be a stay-at-home mom. I was burnt out too. I mean, I had come off of doing two shows for Geraldo, a celebrity show and the news show, and there was no way that you can work in that business, as you probably both know, and be a full-time mom. You can do it, but it’s hard. And I wanted to be home with my kids. I felt that I accomplished everything that I said that I was going to accomplish, that I wanted to accomplish, and I didn’t think there was much more for me at that point. So I wanted to give everything to the kids.
T.H.: So the timing was right. The timing was right for you.
Wendy: The timing was perfect. Yes.
Jessica: Let’s transition over to the divorce stuff. How long had you been thinking about divorce before you guys actually decided to get divorced? Or had it not been on your mind at all and was it something that was brought to you?
Wendy: It’s a good question. It’s a very good question. I don’t think I was thinking about divorce at all. After September 11, we moved out to the suburbs and were in this big house – these two kids, my full-time nannies – and I kind of felt like I’m doing this on my own anyway. He worked a lot, which was fine because I worked a lot when I was working too, and that was okay. I just felt that I was doing it alone, and I felt that I really wasn’t in love anymore. Was I ever in love? I don’t know. I can’t really answer that question to this day. And with that said, I wouldn’t change being married to him or that time for anything because I have my two kids. I wouldn’t have them without that. There was nothing malicious, there was nothing terrible, there was no cheating, and there was no scandal. There was no nothing. I just felt that it wasn’t working for me. We did try marriage counseling, and that wasn’t going to work. It didn’t work at all. We were just basically going around in circles. I just don’t think people really, really change. I just didn’t see us going anywhere. Basically, I think I remember one session I was in there and I was like, I’m done. I’m getting divorced. And the lady goes, “Time’s up.” And he goes, “Do you want to go have wings?” And I was like, “Okay.” It became a business deal to him. It became very ugly. I don’t think there was a time where I said–I think it was that moment actually, that I just told you, like, I’m going to get divorced, it just came on.
T.H.: Blurted it out.
Wendy: There was no time for me to stop and think about the divorce and the process and what that meant and everything else. But I think for him because he’s a businessman, it became a business deal. It was like, I’m going to knock off all the big attorneys–this is what I found out later. And for me, here I was stuck with my–not stuck, but it’s a bad word to say, I was with my kids, being their mother. You have to be a mother first and foremost, no matter what. You have to hide everything as best you can. You have to still be there for them. So I think it’s really hard for the moms.
Jessica: How long were you married before you started feeling like this isn’t really what I was hoping it would be?
Wendy: We were married for nine years. I think it was just it happened. I don’t remember. I really don’t remember the moment. I mean, I was so involved with my kids and so madly–and still am so, but so madly in love with being their mom and their activities and their life that I think I just kept going through the motions. You know, do you understand?
Wendy: I just kept doing it. I think it was really that moment in therapy that I was like, okay, I’m done. I want to get divorced. And then it became his business deal. That’s how I look at it. There are always three sides to every story, right? But that’s my take on it.
T.H.: So how did he react? He took it as a business deal, but as you know looking back, and we all know the process of divorce is the business, and then the emotional side of it. So if he’s handling the business side of it, what was the emotional side of it for both of you? Because that’s what released the groundwork for co-parenting for me.
Wendy: I can’t really speak for him. I am not comfortable speaking for him. For me, I didn’t think it was going to get as ugly as it got. And it was all financial. It wasn’t anything to do with the ugliness with the kids. Obviously, that was a little bit of a part of it. I just couldn’t imagine not spending one waking moment without my kids. And I had them the majority of the time. I mean, I had them, and he had every other weekend, and that was that. I think that was the hardest part, not being with them, and not being their mom during that time and letting go. It’s hard for us. It’s hard for us moms when we’re used to doing everything. But I don’t know how it was for him emotionally. I’ll probably never know. For me, it was emotional because my kids were emotional.
Jessica: How old were they at the time?
Wendy: They were seven and eight, and I think eight and nine, about around that age. They were young. They were young. But I saw them every weekend still because they were still involved in sports. So that was the good thing. The good thing was that I saw them every week. And the bad thing was there was no time for Wendy, because I went to all their events, so the couple days a month that I had off when they weren’t in my home, I didn’t really have off because I went to all their events because they expected me to be there. They wanted me to be there.
T.H.: Of course.
T.H.: So you said something before that not being their mom all the time, and I just wanted to bring that to your attention, because we are their moms all the time. You just completely validated that by saying you’re physically there too. But your kids are still going to call you on the weekends that they’re not with you. I don’t want people to get nervous that on your spouse’s time with your kid, that you’re not still their parent. My kids called me all the time even though they weren’t physically with me. You never stop being their mom. I’m sure your kids felt that too.
Wendy: No, I know, and my kids called me all the time too. Yeah, they called me all the time. I mean all the time. I didn’t mean to say I’m not their mom. I am their mom.
T.H.: No, no, no, I just wanted to make it clear for everybody listening, because–
Jessica: Everybody feels that way when you’re not with them in the process of divorce. It’s like on the one hand there’s all of this mom guilt about it, but I always tried to look at it as like, listen, I have time off from my kids, and I don’t have to feel guilty about it because that’s just what the situation is in divorce. I felt, and I was trying to justify to myself, it’s not the same as us being married and me being like, I need a day off. This was I can’t do anything about it. They’re entitled to their time with their dad. And bonus, that means I can go get a massage or take a nap in the middle of the afternoon and I don’t have to worry about it. I always feel for people who feel all of the mom guilt, which by the way, whether you’re married, whether you’re divorced, whether you work, whether you don’t, whatever the case may be, everybody has so much of that parenting guilt for not being as good as we want to be, even though we’re all great. I think it’s really more about reassuring ourselves and everybody else of course we’re their parents all the time. But when one of the upsides of divorce is that you get time off…
T.H.: You time.
Wendy: But see, with me, it was so different because nobody in my town was getting divorced. Yeah, so I was like the mom–this was so long away, and now it’s like everybody’s getting divorced, I feel like. But there was no podcast and there were no groups. There was no anything. So I felt like, oh, God, it’s weird to walk away. Listen, no one was getting divorced. That’s the bottom line. I’m at a football game, and I’m walking away without my kids. It was weird!
T.H.: It’s a weird feeling.
Wendy: It was weird. It was hard for me because I wasn’t that mom. I was the mom that was with my kids all the time. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn’t want to leave them with babysitters. I didn’t want to do it. I wanted to be with my kids.
Jessica: Right. What would you say is the top thing that you wish you knew before you got started in your divorce process now retroactively looking back?
Wendy: Take a deep breath. Take your time. My state was Connecticut. What are the laws there? – Because I felt very rushed to find an attorney. I did not find the right attorney, not the first time, and the second time. It was not until much later in this process when my kids were almost aged out that I finally found the right attorney when I had to go back to court again. He didn’t do it. My first attorney did not do a good job for me.
Jessica: Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Because T.H. and I often talk about the fact that people’s knee-jerk reaction is the first thing I need to do is go find a lawyer. We, through exEXPERTS and through the Divorce etc… podcast try to really encourage people to do exactly what you’re saying, like, figure out the questions you want to ask and the questions that you need to ask when it comes to finding an attorney. Maybe a divorce coach is a good person to have on your side. So when you look back now and you say that you didn’t find the right attorney, help people understand what that means so that if they are in a similar position, they’re going to recognize the signs and know that they also don’t have the right–
Wendy: Well, first of all, he knocked off supposedly the top attorneys. Because you just make a phone call and you’re–
Jessica: Right, now he’s consulted with them and now they can’t represent you.
Wendy: Correct. I wouldn’t probably have even chosen those attorneys anyway. But I was Googling attorneys and I found one, interviewed him, and he seemed like a great guy. I should have seen the second one, the third one, and the fourth. I should have kept interviewing. But the problem is–
Jessica: So you should have had multiple consults before choosing one?
Wendy: I felt like I was rushed to do it. I didn’t have the time, because as it was, all my friends were coming to help me out getting the kids off to school. But there wasn’t enough time to do all that. You had to get all your papers, all your stuff together. There’s so much to do. I wish I had had somebody that I knew that had gotten divorced, or a coach or something. That also would have probably saved me time and money because instead of texting my attorney every five seconds, or emailing them and getting billed up, this would have been a much cheaper route. But I didn’t take my time, I didn’t find the right attorney, I didn’t Google what the laws were in the state. And that’s really important because in every state it’s very different. I feel if I had done that, I would have just been like, you’re not rushing me. I don’t have to be rushed. I can take my time for a year to find the right attorney. I wished I would have done that. And I didn’t do that. So that’s my biggest advice is take your time, find the right attorney, and interview as many as you possibly can gather. Some of them do have fees, so I know that it’s difficult for people, but maybe that consultation fee is worth it too.
T.H.: I would also say kudos to you for firing or finding a new attorney. Because I think a lot of people forget that the attorney works for you. You don’t work for your attorney. You were strong enough to say you know what, this is not working for me, I need to find somebody else, and actually do it. Because people say a lot of stuff but don’t actually put it into play. So kudos to you for doing that twice and really taking control of your life and your destiny, because you could have just simply gone along with the first lawyer and done what you were told.
Wendy: Well, I kind of did. I had my trial with them. So I didn’t get out fast enough. But then through the other ones, it’s just–
T.H.: But you still got out. It’s all I’m saying. I wouldn’t downplay it.
Wendy: The system is not great. Especially where I live, I don’t feel like the system is great. It’s not great for women. It’s tough. That’s the tough part. I was a different person. I was a mom then. I wasn’t this big, bad television producer. You get different emotions when you become a mother, right? I didn’t have that tiger fight in me, and I didn’t want to fight. But it was a long process. It was a very long, difficult litigation process.
T.H.: Because also heading to trial, even if you wanted out, and I wanted out of my marriage too, and I was also dragged to trial. You have no control. You can control so much, but the really big things, you cannot control. So that’s why everything that we do on exEXPERTS is really focused on doing everything you can to try to settle, everything you can. Don’t let it be because of you that you’re not settling this. Because then some stranger is going to look at an antiquated law and say this is how it’s going to be. And guess what? That’s it.
Wendy: I would have tried. For me, I had to go this route. I was destined to go this route.
T.H.: I did too.
Wendy: It was just the way it was, unfortunately. You can’t look back. I did the best I could with that. The most important thing was that the kids were okay and the kids were great. I was their mom, and I am their mom, and I’m going to always do the right thing by them. That’s another piece of advice I would always say. I was so accused of talking about their dad and badmouthing their dad. I never did that. I never did that because what good would that do for my kids? Nothing.
T.H.: And also, hearing you speak badly about their father is something they would never forget. Jessica and I also never did that.
Jessica: Yeah. It’s my number one rule of divorce. So what would you say that you want other people to know about divorce based on your experience?
Wendy: I know it’s not easy. There’s so many people also that I know are sitting in marriages that they’re not happy with. Life is just too short. I did spend a lot of time alone after my divorce. I didn’t start dating right away. I mean, I dated at first because I needed to figure out–I needed to be Wendy again and not my kids’ mom for a minute. I needed to find myself again. Because you get wrapped up in all that motherhood and it was like, oh, I’m going out. I’m getting dressed up. I’m going on a date. This is so exciting. Then I did that. Then I realized like, I’m good. I had such a great community of friends around me. I was put in such a cocoon that I always–I didn’t care if I was the third wheel. I went out with my friends that were married. I just went to dinner. There was always something to do, always someone’s house to go to dinner at, and always a friend to go out with. So I never felt alone and I never felt like I needed anyone because I was busy being my kids’ mom. It’s a busy life. So take your time. Don’t rush into dating. Don’t feel like you have to be with somebody. I really didn’t. I really didn’t date. I mean, I dated, but it was like one date just to go out to dinner to have conversations with a man. I think my advice is to take time for yourself. I mean, I took a lot of time to myself, and I was comfortable with that. Some people might not be, but take some time for yourself and figure out who you are and what you want.
Jessica: I was going to say is there anything that you think you could have or would have done differently in your divorce now looking back?
Wendy: In the process? Get a better attorney for one.
Wendy: Definitely get a better attorney and take my time. They’re the same things. I don’t know if my divorce would have went any other direction no matter what I did. I just think that my ex-husband was going to just be this is the way it was going to be. I have no hard feelings, no negative feelings. I can’t live with that. I just have to have peace. It is what it is, unfortunately. I wish it was different. I wish that he would have come to family dinners and been around and he would have been kinder to me because I’m their kids’ mom.
T.H.: And you were his wife and you were a woman.
Wendy: Yeah, but more importantly, I’m the kids’ mom. That’s a big reflection on how they see things too. So treat me well.
Jessica: Model a good healthy relationship.
Wendy: But I just don’t think it would have went any other way.
Jessica: What was the hardest part of your divorce?
Wendy: All the trials. Yeah, all the trials, just because I remember my girlfriend would come and pick up the kids off the school bus, and I would be like going to courts. So I’d be all dressed for court clothes, which I didn’t even have those kinds of clothes anymore. I’d change in my car before I got home to be in my yoga pants, so that’s what my kids–they didn’t see me in suits. They didn’t see me dress like that. So it was a whole different thing. It was always like, I’ve got to make sure that come back as their mom. It took a few minutes in the car to cool myself off, change my clothes, and get in the house and be the mom again. It was just not a fun process.
T.H.: It all sucks. It all sucks.
Jessica: Litigating has got to be hard.
Wendy: Litigation sucks and I think it just took away so much time and so much of life, right?
T.H.: And energy.
Wendy: Yeah, just all that, I just wish it was different. I wished it would have been different. I wish we would have mediated or got along, or just like, we’ll just go our separate ways. I wish that for everybody because life would be so much easier.
Jessica: Was there anything easy about your divorce at all?
Wendy: No, not really.
T.H.: It’s hard to find something easy when you’re litigating. I’m trying to think of an answer to that question. Really, you have to put on a different face when you come home, not even just your clothing. You were just sitting in a courthouse being questioned and not being able to show emotion–
Wendy: It’s so ugly.
T.H.: –not being able to stand up for yourself, and then you’re going to come home and be like, rah-rah mom. It’s just really, really hard. You need time to decompress after something like that.
Wendy: Mine went on until my kids were almost going to college, put it that way. My last one with my last lawyer, who really just was amazing, she’s like, just let it go. The kids are going to age out. I’m like, no, I’m going for it now. I was really strong because I had her as my attorney. It just made all the difference in the world when you have a good attorney.
T.H.: Yeah, because she’s your teammate.
Jessica: What’s your relationship now with your ex? Or is there one at all?
Wendy: There’s none.
Wendy: Yeah, there’s none.
T.H.: So what changes have you made in your life since your marriage, for yourself personally and professionally?
Wendy: Let’s see, my life, what changes have I made? Well, I moved into another house after I finally sold the big house, which took forever and ever and ever and ever. And what changes? I don’t think there have been–changes, explain that a little bit more?
Jessica: Well, is there anything that you could take from the relationship of your marriage that you would make sure not to do again? Or are you using anything that you learned from the demise of your marriage in current relationships?
Wendy: I think I was always ready for a fight because I was fighting for so long in litigation. Sometimes I’ll want to maybe pick a fight because I want to see the reaction. I think I learned to communicate really well, much better. It was a big thing, like communicate–
T.H.: That’s great.
Wendy: –and I’ve always been the same person. The same person as I was back then. The same person when I dated in my 20s when I had my big career. What you see is what you get. So there really were no big changes, because I really didn’t date that much. But I am definitely stronger because of everything that I went through, even stronger than I was before. I feel the greatest thing in my life is raising my two kids and seeing them thrive and be these amazing, wonderful, beautiful people. I think that’s the gift I gave them even through everything that I went through.
Jessica: I will say, for you and for anybody out there listening, I mean, you just said you’re stronger now than you were then. And there may be some truth to that, but don’t discount your strength even at that time. With everything that you went through, you had to be strong to have been able to get through that. It’s unfortunate that divorce forces everything to a head and it makes us see how strong we are. For T.H. and I, our circumstances were similar but different. Both of our husbands had had affairs, but the end results were different. I definitely wasn’t acknowledging truthfully to myself what was going on in my marriage for a long time. I also had that TV career, and I felt I had so much going on and my job was so big, and I had the kids, and my kids were only two and four at the time, like, I didn’t have the headspace for everything until it was literally in my face. I feel the reason that I didn’t face it prior to that is because I wasn’t strong enough to do it. I think that subconsciously, I really just wasn’t ready. But at the end of the day, when push comes to shove, regardless of why or when you find out that you’re about to get divorced, it’s like, all of a sudden the strength kicks in, right? And all of a sudden, I realized how strong we are.
Wendy: I probably was strong. I was probably like a walking zombie because it’s so emotionally exhausting. And God, it just dragged on and on and on. It was just like, never going to end. There was a period of time that he did move, and he moved to Florida. I had a lot of peace at that time I think because some of the financial issues were resolved, like alimony or whatever. I don’t want to really get into this too much, but I think that because when we went to court for to get rid of the alimony, it was only child support at that point, he had already planned to move. I think for a period of time, there was no litigation. It was so peaceful. There was a part of me that–there was moments where I was like, God, are my kids going to be 18 anytime soon? And I hate to say that because I never want to rush time, but we all feel like that, like God, are they going to be 18 so we can just be done with this?
T.H.: Be done.
Wendy: Yeah. So I think my biggest piece of advice to people is don’t badmouth your ex. Keep the kids out of it. I feel like I kept my kids out of it. And I feel like that’s why they did so well. They didn’t like to have two places to live. I don’t think it’s easy.
T.H.: None of them do. It shakes up their life.
T.H.: It’s not what they know. They want to be like everybody else.
Wendy: One thing about my co-hosts that I love, and we talked about this on one of the interviews, Daniel Herrold, who’s such a doll, and I’m so grateful that I did launch this podcast, Divorce Doesn’t Suck, because I wish I had a community like this when I was going through divorce, or that I could listen to a chat like this so I didn’t feel alone because I have nothing. A quick story, there was this one girl in my town who I knew was going through a divorce. She was the only person I knew, and I didn’t really know her. So I remember I was at the elementary school and I sent her a message and go, you don’t know me, but I think we have something in common. And so we met and I was grateful for her. Her divorce was way worse than mine even. But I had somebody at that point. Yeah.
T.H.: That’s exactly why we started exEXPERTS because Jessica and I had each other. I mean, we had our friendship, we had our married friendship, and we got each other in our divorces. Just also knowing our weekends were covered, we made sure we had our kids on the same weekend so we always had a plan. The first New Year’s Eve was covered. Mother’s Day, any holiday, I’m either at hers or she’s at mine. So taking that off the plate, like not freaking out about it was a really big deal. So we created exEXPERTS so people know they’re not alone, and it is going to be better. And it all does suck, but–
Wendy: Divorce doesn’t suck at the end.
Jessica: Not at the end.
T.H.: But listen, you still have to co-parent with someone, and I handle business with my ex. There’s no love lost here. And that’s also difficult. One thing that my daughter always brings up to me that I catch myself now is I would be like, well, what did your father say? And she’s like, my father? Because if I say Dad, it’s almost endearing, you know, and I don’t feel endearing. And so that was a shift. So I would just say all of it is difficult. Listen to your kids and be an open door of communication for them. They have questions for you as they grow older and things are going to come up. You have to co-parent, but be the best mom you can be, which is what you have done. We can only control us. We can’t control the other side. But cream rises to the top. And look at you now being an inspiration for others and leading by example for your kids.
Wendy: If I can help one person, I feel I’ve done my job. I always wanted to build and have a divorce community and do something with divorce. I didn’t know what it was until I was about to interview Daniel for What’s Up with Wendy, because I saw him on the Tamron Hall Show, and then we started talking and we created the show together, which has been a blessing and so great to hear people’s stories. We’d get messages saying like, thank you for putting this podcast up, I learned so much from it. That’s the greatest thing. But I wanted to finish that story about Daniel. So we were talking about this to one of our guests. He was like, my kids, they didn’t want two houses. So they would come to me and they were supposed to come to me for two dinners a week. They didn’t really want to come. And so I called my ex-wife and I was like, the kids don’t really want to come. They don’t really want to be here. She goes: listen, they don’t want to be with me either. They’re teenagers! They want to be with their friends. That made me feel better about that because these kids, they have their life too. So just because me and my wife are getting divorced and separating doesn’t mean they want to follow our schedule.
Jessica: Exactly. We’ve learned how to be flexible and fluid as much as we can. Because it’s true, the needs and the arrangements that you make during your divorce agreement when your kids are two and four certainly are not going to be the same when your kids are 15 and 17. It is kind of an evolution and a living, breathing process over the years, which can sometimes make it more challenging, as you’ve indicated by having to go back to court.
Wendy: Oh, my God, we had so many people in our lives. We had kid’s lawyers, we had mediators, and we had guardians. It was like never–and the court system, by the way, does that to you. Well, the lawyers too, but the court system allows this to happen. I really hope they change. I really hope it changes one day.
Jessica: Yeah. Well, we’ve spoken to a lot of lawyers and even a judge that said similar things in terms of it’s very antiquated in some ways, and there could be ways for it to be updated and modernized. Hopefully, at some point, it will.
Wendy: Oh, modernized, does it need that, boy.
T.H.: Yeah. Well, that’s why it’s encouraged that you do everything you can to avoid it. And if you’re like you and me, Wendy, and you can’t, then you do the best you can.
Wendy: You do the best you can.
Jessica: I feel you’re saying if you can help one person, you’ve done your job. By you telling your story and answering these questions, I think that you’ll be helping a lot of people. Because I think that a) as you know, hearing other people’s stories, it’s not from a “misery loves company” standpoint, but from other people have been where I’ve been and understand what I’m going through. I’m not the only one. And it helps people to not feel alone and it helps people to recognize the kinds of things that they should be focusing on in their own divorce process, which hopefully will help them in theirs thanks to you.
Wendy: And surround yourself with really amazing–like, I have so many amazing friends–
Jessica: You’re lucky.
Wendy: –with a good tribe, because that helps too. I mean, we spent every holiday with the same people – every Thanksgiving, every Christmas, every Jewish holiday with the same people. And that was our new tradition. Things change but–
T.H.: They’re still good.
Jessica: That’s right. So thank you so much for taking the time to share your story. For everyone listening, you can find all of Wendy’s information on our website: www.exexperts.com on her Expert’s page with links to all of her ways to get in touch with her – her social, her podcast. But thank you again so much Wendy. We really appreciate you sharing your story.
Wendy: Thanks for what you guys are doing too. We’re all in this together. That’s for sure.
T.H.: This is the new tribe.
Wendy: Yes, it is. Thanks so much
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