FULL TRANSCRIPT – SEASON 2, EP. 73

Jessica: Have you ever wondered what our top most listened to episodes are of the Divorce etc… podcast in season 2? Well, today is your lucky day because that’s exactly what we’re talking about and exactly what you’re going to get from today’s episode. We are the exEXPERTS, Jessica and T.H. We focus on helping you navigate your divorce and successfully move on with your life. Please follow us on all social media at exEXPERTS and check out www.exexperts.com for tons of free divorce-related resources. Today, we are going to be doing a round-up of our most listened-to episodes from season 2 because we have a lot of amazing episodes out there and you may not have heard all of them. We want to make sure that even if you haven’t, you have the chance to get an idea a little bit more from us about who the guests are and what kind of amazing advice you’re going to get.

T.H.: In the season 2 wrap-up, just to give you guys some idea of the themes, I mean, by far, it was all about divorcing a narcissist, dealing with difficult people, moving on from a difficult relationship, trauma recovery, and really focused on self, which is really, really important because that’s what you need in order to move forward, and then also the most common mistakes men and women make. We’re going to get into all of this right now. Let’s start with our top five, our fifth most popular episode of season 2 right now.

#5 – The Most Common Mistakes of Men and Women in Divorce

Featuring Men’s Divorce Coach & Divorce Attorney and Mediators John Nachlinger and Christina Previte (S2, Ep.11)

Jessica: Right, so season 2 episode 11, and the title was “The Most Common Mistakes of Men and Women in Divorce”. We had two guests for this podcast episode, John Nachlinger, and Christina Previte, who happened to be law partners in Jersey. Having a man and a woman guest talk about the most common mistakes of men and women was a really great conversation and actually was very enlightening, because some of the mistakes that you might assume or attribute to women making, were really mistakes that they see more coming from men and vice versa. I just thought it was a really eye-opening episode.

T.H.: I did too. But I want to even step back because John mentioned it really comes down to cultural training. It’s really who makes more money in the relationship, and because that happens to be a man, then there are certain mistakes that the breadwinner might make over the other spouse. Then just because of culture, it ends up being a man versus a woman. Also, women are more accustomed to talking about things. Women are trained to talk about it. They’re more comfortable talking to their girlfriends, a therapist, a coach, anybody really. I’ve seen a lot of women who could just literally talk to a wall. Men are not comfortable doing that. It’s the way that we have been trained in our society. It’s not a man’s fault that he’s uncomfortable talking about their feelings and digging deep as opposed to just going and not dealing with it and having a beer. This is how our society has set us up to deal with things. Women are emotional, guys are not. Women are a pain in the ass. Guys are not. Why are guys not?

Jessica: I don’t know about that!

T.H.: We get into all of this, but I love the fact that he brought up cultural training. You take a step back on why things are the way they are and maybe cut a little slack for yourself. 

Jessica: Maybe. But I mean what it really came down to, and we’ve talked about this a million times, which is the importance of having a therapist when you’re going through a divorce and not using your lawyer as your therapist. Every divorce lawyer will tell you that they have many clients who do that. At the end of the day, it sucks because if you had a therapist, you would be paying your therapist far less an hour than you’re paying your lawyer. I just thought it was so interesting that John said that more men make the mistake that your lawyer isn’t your therapist. Although to your point T.H., more men are less likely to seek therapy. Maybe that’s why. They don’t want another outlet to go. 

T.H.: Right. That’s exactly right.

Jessica: And he also said, not surprisingly, another mistake that men make is that they don’t have a support system around them like women do.

T.H.: That’s cultural training. If you can get past why she’s doing this and why he’s doing that and just look at the circumstances and not put a label on it so much, the differences were more behavior-driven than whether it was a man or a woman. It just happens to fall into a man or a woman’s role because of where they stood in their marriage and in life and what their role was in their family. If she took care and raised the kids, and he went to work, then those are your jobs that you’ve been trained to do. And so when everything gets shaken up holy crap, what do I do now I have the kids on Wednesday and every other weekend? I go to work every day and I come home, or vice versa. I have the kids all the time – what am I going to do without the kids? This is a great, great, great episode for everybody to really take a listen to.

Jessica: Totally. Speaking of the whole everything around alimony and stay-at-home moms and things like that, part of the discussion focused on that. I thought it was really interesting that Christina said one of the biggest mistakes she sees primarily from women is them saying they’re not going to get a job so that they can maximize the alimony that they’re going to get. Although we were talking like, I don’t understand why they wouldn’t want to be self-sufficient. Why would they want to have to rely on the person that they’re so unhappy with that they’re going to get a divorce?

T.H.: They’re not looking at it that way. It’s for revenge. It’s like I’m going to make them pay. This is the life I’ve become accustomed.

Jessica: Yeah, but then sometimes they don’t get the amount that they were hoping for. Now they’ve self-sabotaged their own situation–

T.H.: 100%.

Jessica: –by saying, “I’m going to show him and I’m not going to get a job.” By the way, what if the guy gets hit by a car tomorrow? Now all of a sudden… I know, I’m just saying, that was part of the conversation. That was part of what John was saying, like women, a lot of times make the mistake of not making good use of the time or the money in which they get spousal maintenance. You can never predict the future. Your stance should not be “I’m going to show him by not getting a job.” Your stance should be, “I’m going to get a job and be self-sufficient, and everything else that comes in is just gravy or money that I can put away towards retirement or whatever the case may be.”

T.H.: Right, but that’s emotions versus rational thinking.

Jessica: It is. Right, exactly.

T.H.: If you’ve been scorned, whether you’re the man or the woman, back to what you said initially, you need a therapist, and you have to get things in check. By the way, the purpose of support is temporary to support you until you get on your feet. It’s not a lifetime allowance.

Jessica: Not anymore it’s not. That’s for sure.

T.H.: No, it’s not anyway. Even lifetime, it ends when someone retires. So it’s not for the rest of your life.

Jessica: One of the things that was great that you guys will love as part of this episode, which I thought was really fucking brilliant was when we were talking about the idea of how a lot of women feel they’re the underdogs because they may have had great education and great backgrounds and great high powered careers that they leave to go raise their family. They’re giving up a number of high employability years in order to raise the family. The idea is that women in that situation should definitely have a prenup. Or if they’ve been married for let’s say, five years, and then they decide that she’s going to leave her job. At that moment, they should get a postnup that states if they ever get divorced, he is going to pay her X amount of money per year, starting with the year that she gave up her job–

T.H.: Yeah, that was brilliant.

Jessica: –which I thought was so brilliant because these women are like, “Well, I haven’t worked in the last 20 years. Okay, maybe they can go out and get a job now.” But in theory, they could have had all of this income coming in all this time that they gave up. So someone should try to make up for it.

T.H.: So you guys should really be sure to tune in to season 3. We talk all about that very topic with Andrea Vacca. Be sure to check in on season 3. We’re not going to give up any more of this episode because we really want you to listen to it.

Jessica: Okay, okay. Yes, we really love that episode. That was great. By the way, that was an amazing one, and that was only our fifth-highest-rated episode.

T.H.: That’s right. Wait until you hear the rest of them.

#4 – The One Thing You Can Control During Divorce

Featuring Divorce Attorney Jennifer Lazor (S2, Ep. 38)

Jessica: Moving on to our fourth highest-rated episode of season 2 was episode 38. The title was “The One Thing You Can Control during Divorce” with Jennifer Lazor, who, fun fact…

T.H.: She was the second in command in my legal team. She was honestly the only voice of reason I had in my legal team as far as the lawyers are concerned. And so I really wanted to revisit and have a podcast with her because she was strong and effective without being a bulldog and literally fighting every single thing. I really like her delivery, so she’s someone you should check out anyway. But my divorce, I felt I had no control. I felt I was being dragged through the court. I am blaming him because I couldn’t negotiate with him. That’ll lead to our next episodes that we’re going to talk about. But what I could control and I did control was me and how I responded to things and how I processed things so that I could make better decisions and not just have a knee-jerk reaction and make potentially detrimental decisions as far as my negotiation and my ultimate settlement was concerned. Having a therapist will be a common theme through this full recap of our top five from season 2. It is the only way that I did that. You can’t control the process, and you cannot control the other party. My personal feeling is you can’t really control your lawyer either. You give them everything, and you hope that they take it and they make magic with it. But you’re not controlling what they’re saying to the judge, what they’re saying to the other lawyer, what they’re doing to help you get to where you want to be. So start with yourself. This is a must-listen-to episode for everybody.

Jessica: I mean, I always love a good list, and she gave a great list of the actual things that you really can control. She talks about how you don’t want to surrender your control to the judicial system. You can control the information you know, you can control the information you have, you can control the tone, and you can control your emotions so that you are in a state to make the right decisions. I love that she talks about–because T.H. is so right, many people will find themselves caught up in a divorce process where the other person is making everything more difficult, and you really can’t control the length of time that the negotiations are going on. You may not be able to control whether or not you have to litigate. You may be being led down a path by your soon-to-be ex. But what Jennifer talked about was that even if you have to litigate, you actually can set the tone for your litigation. If you feel all it is, is a bunch of nasty letters going back and forth, she says you should check your bill to see how much you’re paying for that. She says that your lawyer can receive letters in a tone like that, but it does not mean that your lawyer has to reply the same way. You’re never going to be able to know for sure what they’re saying when you’re not there. But she talks about you have the right to decide if you’re comfortable with the message that the tone your lawyer is sending. That is in your control. There are oftentimes you’re going to get so caught up in it that you feel it’s beyond your control. It’s already been so long, and this is how the tone of it has been, and you don’t ever feel like you can reset it. But her message overall was this has to be a conversation that you have with your lawyer in the beginning. So many of us don’t know that and we don’t realize that. We let our lawyers take the lead and we are being pushed in a certain direction by our ex. The truth is if you and your lawyer feel you’re in a partnership together, that comes from your initial interviews. We talk all about that in other episodes of the Divorce etc… podcast, but you need to feel you have that comfort level so that you can have the tone at least coming from your side that you are comfortable with through your process. I thought she was awesome.

T.H.: Honestly, you might not know that at first, because I definitely didn’t know that at first. But we had a four-year relationship, and I would say halfway through, I started to grow some muscle in my brain and my confidence and started to speak up and realize the tone wasn’t good. When you’re first going in it, you don’t know what the fuck is happening. You’re just stuck in a wind tunnel. You’re following this person who you just paid a ton of money to, to protect you from the wind. But when you’re not in a position of fear so much anymore and you’ve grown some legs and some experience, then you might be in a better place. I don’t fully agree with that. I think that’s ideal at the beginning, but it may not happen till you’re in it so that you can get your legs steady, and then you can say okay, all right, this is actually not what I want. It’s hard to figure that out.

Jessica: The overall, I think, key takeaway that you’re going to get from listening to this episode from Jennifer is that you can always control your knowledge. It’s on you to be prepared and to find out the information that you need. Don’t go into it blindly. Don’t just think that because your lawyer has done this before that you don’t have to read the documents or you don’t need to know what’s going on, because you will feel a much greater sense of control if you are in the process and involved participant in the process. It’s a very scary thing, but definitely worth doing. So that’s episode 38.  

T.H.: We are going to pause here for a quick minute. Because we know it’s hard to get honest and reliable information about your divorce, so we’ve done the work for you. Be sure to subscribe to our newsletter to get exEXPERTS in your inbox. Join our virtual open house events where you can ask questions to top experts and the two of us, and sign up for private sessions with us so you can move beyond your divorce. You can sign up for all this information at www.exexperts.com. We’ve lived it, so we get it. So now we’ve got three episodes left, but it’s really four based on what we’ve done.

# 3 – How to Divorce a Difficult Person (Narcissist)

Featuring Divorce Coach and Solicitor Nawal Houghton (S2, Ep. 46)

Jessica: Our third most listen-to, if we count two of them together, this third one is episode 46, season two episode 46 with Nawal Houghton. The title is “How to Divorce a Difficult Person”. “Difficult person” is code for someone who is a narcissist or has some type of behavioral issue like that where your divorce process is just going to be totally different than everyone else’s. All I’m going to say first is just the accent – Nawal’s accent alone makes the episode worth it.

T.H.: It makes the medicine go down a little easier.

Jessica: She’s so smart. She’s British and she’s a lawyer and she’s a mediator and she’s a divorce coach because she’s seen divorce from all sides. Her own experience divorcing a narcissist has then pointed her in this direction to help people through the trauma. T.H., what were your thoughts on this?

T.H.: I mean I divorced a narcissist. So a lot of it for me definitely validated my experience and made me feel I wasn’t alone. So if for no other reason, even if your soon-to-be ex is not a legit narcissist but a difficult person, it’s really important to listen to this episode. She’s going to teach you how important boundaries are. She is going to remind you that it’s not your fault. The number one thing that was so interesting to me, only because I’ve already lived it, so it wasn’t like new facts for me, difficult people are not always who you’re married to. They can be your coworkers, they can be your family members, or they could be friends. These are difficult people in your life. They’re not always living in your marriage. It’s certainly more difficult when you have to divorce that person, so that’s how we get back to divorce here, but what you can learn here is just how to set up boundaries with anybody who feels toxic to you. Because once you’ve been in a relationship with a narcissist or someone with those tendencies, your gut will be like, oh my god, I feel it again. It doesn’t look like him, and it doesn’t look like her. It looks like I’m at work, what the fuck? Where’s this coming from, and how do I handle it? She really helps you identify and gives you tips on how to handle a difficult person.

Jessica: I did not come out of a situation where I was divorcing a narcissist. I’ve become very educated on the topic over the past year just because of episodes that we’ve done, conversations we’ve had, interviews that we’ve done. I think it’s important for everybody to be knowledgeable somewhat about this because having this information can help you if you have a friend or a loved one who’s going through this situation. You’ll be able to support them in a better way and in a different way than you would if you knew nothing about this kind of stuff. Coming from where I’m coming from, I will say I particularly liked that she’s so blunt about how everybody today is using the term narcissist too frequently and that she will tell her clients outright that their ex is not a narcissist. It could still be a very challenging situation for them, and their ex could still be a difficult person, but they don’t necessarily have a personality disorder, which I really think is so important for people to consider. You can’t just use the term narcissist lightly. It’s an actual thing.

T.H.: Well, we’re going to get into that in the next episode.

Jessica: No, I know, but she talked about that in this episode. I think that that’s a real thing that people need to know about. I also thought that it was really helpful because she gave an actual list of things for people to be looking for, and looking at in their own marriages to help identify what it is that they’re dealing with, so like, being fearful of expressing yourself, being asked to quiet down, having no freedom to speak out, and feeling like you have to silence your own emotions. She gave tangible things that people need to think about and help identify the kind of situation that they’re in. I thought that that was really helpful.

T.H.: Wait, hold on, even Jessica just listing those things off hurts my gut. So if it hurts your gut to hear those things that she just listed off, then I get it.

Jessica: Then you should listen to this episode.

T.H.: You need to listen to this episode. It’s a gift for you. Because like the one we talked about, you can’t control anybody else.  You can’t fix anybody. There’s no such thing. You can’t change people. But you can change the way you react to people. It’s good to think about it in terms of broad terms. I think everybody should really listen to this episode because you’re never going to know when you’re going to run into somebody like this. You can be like, “You know what? I’ve heard this before. This is how I’m going to handle this negotiation for work. This is how I’m going to handle this parent who I have to carpool with.” This is a great tool for you to be able to identify a red flag and be like, “Holy crap. Okay, let’s go.”

Jessica: Right. Look, overall, Nawal was just really helpful in giving tips on exactly what T.H. was talking about, how to handle communication once you’re divorced and need to be co parenting. And it takes practice. But she has such a good “bedside manner” that it’s really easy to listen to her and to hear her and to be able to follow her advice. So it’s definitely an episode that you need to hear. If you have even the slightest question of whether or not you actually are in a situation that you’re divorcing a narcissist, then even 10 times more important for you go hear this episode because it’s really incredibly helpful.

T.H.: Yeah. I mean she’s been through it. She’s not just giving advice because she thinks she knows better. She actually does know better.

Jessica: Right, right, exactly, exactly. Okay moving on.

T.H.: Okay, let’s move on to our top two and two-and-a-half episodes.

#2 – Narcissist vs. Asshole (there is a difference) Part 1 & Part 2

Featuring Narcissist Recovery Coach Ina Hansen (S2, Ep. 57 & 58)

Jessica: Right, our top two and two. We did a two-part series in season two. They were episodes 57 and 58. The titles were “Narcissist versus Asshole – There is a Difference. Part One and Part Two”.

T.H.: By the way, that’s our top chosen title out of 140-plus episodes.

Jessica: Yeah, that’s our best one. Yeah, we love it so much.

T.H.: This title is the winner.

Jessica: For sure. “Narcissist versus Asshole – There Is a Difference”. In our cases, T.H. and I personally, T.H. divorced a narcissist, and I just divorced an asshole. This really is very relevant. But anyway, they were episodes 57 and 58. And so, again, we were talking about all this stuff with Nawal. We have some additional points to add here, but really, this topic, this theme of divorcing a narcissist, identifying a narcissist, and navigating the process with a narcissist and the beyond, really hit home to a lot of our community this year. It was interesting to see how our most listened-to episodes played out, no pun intended, with three out of five being about narcissists. Our guest was Ina…

T.H.: Hansen.

Jessica: Hansen, exactly.

T.H.: I’ve got to tell you, it was hard for me to listen to it. It was hard for me to go back to part one and two for this. 

Jessica: Was it hard for you to record it?

T.H.: No, because I didn’t know what she was going to say. Then as soon as she said something, I’d be like, “Oh my god that was me. That was me. That was him. That was us.” I don’t really want to be reminded, but I kind of needed to be reminded. The reason I needed to be reminded is so that I can give myself credit for how far I’ve come, not to say, “God, I wasted four years of my life.” I don’t think I wasted any of my life. I think it took me as long as it took me to learn what I learned. But it also shows the magnitude of what I was dealing with. I compartmentalized a lot of it and just got through my life day by day. But like holy crap that was a lot. It was really big and yay for me. I am, Ina is, Nawal is, and a ton of you out there are shining examples of people who can move on from this. Knowledge is power. I just want to explain that NPD is Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It’s a diagnosis. Few narcissists will be diagnosed since it requires the narcissist to actually admit they have emotional issues that they want to resolve. That is not a characteristic of a narcissist.

Jessica: Right, it’s totally counterintuitive to who they are as a person.

T.H.: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. But she really gets into identifying it. She gets into the nitty gritty of it, how it affects your health, how it affects your brain function, and real gaslighting. She gets into it. Then in part two, we really focus on the recovery of it and the small steps you can take toward healing. Again, the message is that you will be okay. Why is it important to know this? Because you were subject to some relationship that was very traumatic. I know for me, I don’t ever want to be in that relationship again. So I need to know. I need to know so I can see things differently. I can help myself heal so I’m not drawn back into those bad, very, very toxic patterns.

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I again, not coming from that place, it was just very informative. I think that it’s important for people to hear even if you think that’s not where you’re coming from because you know someone who’s there, or who has been there, that you need to know to be able to help them handle what they’re dealing with. I would be remiss if I didn’t start off with, first of all, again, the title is “Narcissist versus Asshole”, the best. I love that Ina broke down a lot of the differences between narcissists and assholes and basically said that narcissists are “empty sleeves”, which I thought was a great description. I love that she has a checklist of questions that she goes through with her clients. She actually goes through a bunch of them in this episode, which can really give anybody listening a tangible list of things to be asking and answering, and can put you in a position of knowledge so that you know how to move forward. The actionable tips that you’re getting out of these episodes is really worth it. Some of the things that I felt were hard to listen to were she was explaining how one of the biggest differences is how a narcissist will “discard” you after a fight and ignore you and eventually come back like nothing happened. Then to T.H.’s point, talking about how your brain functions, it was very interesting to hear her talk about that when you’re in a narcissistic relationship. You can actually experience trauma to your brain. That hit hard to listen to. But then we go through the recovery and what people can do to move on and move past it and be able to use the knowledge that they have to empower them to move forward in a better way without making the same choices. I love that she gave tips like don’t give into the drama, because your reaction is what they’re looking for and what they thrive on.

T.H.: Yeah, it’s fuel. You’re fueling the fire, and the only person getting hurt is you. That’s it.

Jessica: Right. She says if you’re in a situation where you haven’t actually left yet, you’re thinking about getting divorced, Ina says if you know you want to leave and you’re trying to get your ducks in a row, it’s helpful to start pulling back and just be giving yes or no type of answers and the like, so that they don’t have anything to feed off of.

T.H.: Right, to not engage.

Jessica: That’s right. That is going to be really helpful for you when you actually are going through the process, because engaging or not engaging is what throws people in that process and what makes the process so much more difficult for like a non-narcissist in the situation.

T.H.: Before we get to our top listened-to episode of season 2, I just want to mention that we have monthly open house events, which means we bring in three exEXPERTS, the divorce professionals and beyond, related around a certain topic. We actually did an event this past year called “Divorcing a Narcissist”, right? Wasn’t that our title?

Jessica: Yep.

T.H.: And oh my god, we also had Bradley Richardson on there. He was married to a female narcissist. Not all narcissists are men. Most are, but not all. We do these types of events around these really impactful important topics – how do I pay for my divorce, what kind of divorce is right for me, to date or not to date, family matters, and co-parenting. And so coming up in January, we have an event about, okay, I’m getting a divorce. Where do I begin? Now what? So make sure you check in with www.exexperts.com. Follow us on all of our social media. These events give you an opportunity to ask questions live to the paid professionals who you can’t access easily for a quick, “Oh, I’ve got a question here. I’ve got a question there.” We have brought them together for you because we know how important it is for you to be properly educated. So stay tuned for that.

#1 – How to Find Hidden Money in Divorce

Featuring Business Valuator Melissa Gragg (S2, Ep. 60)

Jessica: Correct. Correct. Definitely. Okay, our most highly-rated episode of season 2 was episode 60. The title was “How to Find Hidden Money in Divorce”.

T.H.: We already know why it’s number one, right?

Jessica: Right, I was going to say that’s my second favorite title.

T.H.: Everyone’s like, there’s got to be hidden treasure here somewhere.

Jessica: That’s right, how to find hidden money in divorce.

T.H.: I want a hidden treasure.

Jessica: Our guest was Melissa Gragg, a valuation expert. She is such a badass. I mean–

T.H.: She is.

Jessica: –she brought up so many great points in this episode. First of all, everybody needs to listen to this because everybody needs to know what their financial situation is. Nobody wants to leave money on the table, right? I thought that she had an amazing list of points that everybody needs to hear, including when one spouse is more in the dark about the finances and maybe thinks they have a lot more money than they really have. Because this is a really important thing, your spouse may have a business that deals with a lot of things in cash. You may be living a lifestyle way beyond your means, and you’re not aware of that. You may have credit card debt that you aren’t clued into. And so if that’s going on and you’re not aware of it, you’re going to be apt to be like, “Well, in this divorce, I’m going to get this and I’m going to do this.” You’re planning in your head for what your future is going to look like financially, and you really could be way off. And so if your life is being financed by credit cards and there’s like I said, maybe a lot of debt–

T.H.: Or even being financed with cash.

Jessica: Well, if you’re being financed with cash, then you actually have the cash.

T.H.: You have the cash, but you can’t track it. It’s not as easy.

Jessica: Well, right. Okay, so for sure, in that regard as well. But I just mean the perspective where she has a lot of people come in and they think that they have a lot of money. They’re going on these elaborate vacations, and they live in a huge house and whatever it is, they have all these cars, and they are expecting her to find all of this hidden money. I like that she’s realistic about look, you don’t to have to pay me to track down stuff that I’m already telling you doesn’t exist, as opposed to her saying, let me look down every crack and crevice and spend whatever money you do have left on this. She’s very pragmatic about it.

T.H.: Yeah, and she usually gets comes into the process through your attorneys. She also holds a neutral position. Her job is to find hidden money anywhere for anybody involved in this divorce process. She also, another really important reason to listen to this episode, talks about key red flags that she will find when uncovering a dirty financial situation. You are going to want to hear that episode of what those red flags are and make sure they are not you. Look, again, like we say so many times, there’s the business side of divorce and the emotional side of divorce. Let the business side be the rational side of it. If something doesn’t feel right, and you’re thinking about this happened and that happened, and the dots don’t connect financially, then get to the reason how they could connect, or reason why. Why don’t they connect? Educate yourself, get the information that you need, and then make smart decisions with the people who have done hundreds of divorces and handled hundreds of business valuations. Because you could say, “I know there’s money, I know there’s money,” but by the time you spend all the money looking for that little amount of hidden money, you’re out of money. You need to really listen, especially as a neutral party comes in. She’s not for one or the other side. She’s on an investigative mission to tell you the facts.

Jessica: That’s right.

T.H.: You need to be in a position like Jennifer Lazor said to listen to the information. Don’t get caught up in a massive search for something that’s not there.

Jessica: She really talked about how she can actually find all the nuggets because there’s always a way to trace things if you know where to look. You guys, this woman knows where to look.

T.H.: She knows.

Jessica: I felt she was so reassuring that if I had needed her as part of my divorce process, I would have felt that I was in very capable hands and that I would have trusted her if she said to me “There is no hidden money.” I would have trusted her. So for everybody out there, this is definitely an episode you have to hear. Because again, if you think that something doesn’t feel right or doesn’t sound right or isn’t sitting with you right in the course of your divorce, then you’re going to want to look into someone like Melissa who can help you find hidden money if there is any.

T.H.: Really, another common theme that we talk about is educating yourself. So if you have been in your marriage and you have not been a part of the financial conversation, then educate yourself before you’re so convinced that there’s hidden money. And look, I want you to find hidden money. I want you to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But I want you to be educated on what’s really there and not be going on a wild goose chase and wasting your energy instead of putting it to a better purpose. That’s all.

Jessica: But listen to Melissa because she talks about the places that she can find it. She talks about the ways that she tracks it down. She gives you things to be aware of. It’s a really practical episode with a lot of great information that you’re going to want to be able to use through your divorce process. Those are our top five/six most listened-to episodes of season 2 of the Divorce etc… podcast. And if you are enjoying the Divorce etc… podcast, if there have been any episodes that you’ve heard where you’ve gotten information that’s been really helpful and useful to you, then please help us out by subscribing, rating, and reviewing. Because when you do that, that actually helps us to get the word out to more people and be able to support more people like you who really need it, which is ultimately our goal. We are so glad to be able to keep bringing you–oh, T.H. has something to say

T.H.: I was just going to say season 3 is filled with even more experts. We jumped on season three so soon. We’ve got you covered until the end of April with fantastic experts, awesome events, Instagram lives. TikToks with tips–

Jessica: There’s a ton of new content.

T.H.: –Divorce Tips Tuesday. We’ve got a great amount of information coming your way in the New Year, so please look out for it all. You can always DM us or email us at hello@exexperts.com.

Jessica: Check out the show notes so you can see the complete list of the episodes that we’ve gone through today in the roundup. And of course, share the Divorce etc… podcast and all of exEXPERTS with anyone you know who can benefit from listening. Have a great day.