FULL TRANSCRIPT – DIVORCE ETC… PODCAST WITH exEXPERTS
JUST US: HOW TO SURVIVE THE HOLIDAYS DURING DIVORCE
SEASON 3, EPISODE 47
Jessica: Are you looking forward to or dreading the holidays, or a little bit of both? We know they can be both exciting and awful, depending on where you are with your divorce. We’ve been through it all. Today, we’re doing a Just Us episode and talking all about the things you can’t afford to forget going into the holidays in this episode of the Divorce etc… podcast. We’re the exEXPERTS, Jessica and T.H. We focus on helping you navigate your divorce and successfully move on with your life. Please follow us on all social media at exEXPERTS, and check out www.exexperts.com for tons of free divorce related resources. So, T, this is an episode you’ve been wanting to do for quite a while.
T.H.: The holidays, there’s so much pressure. Honestly, the holidays almost start as soon as summer is over, right?
Jessica: I see people have their trees up already.
T.H.: Forget about that. Home Goods is already ready for Halloween right after Labor Day.
T.H.: And so I feel so much pressure. I was thinking back to when I was not in a relationship, and the early stages of separation and divorce, and I was like, “I am not freaking ready for this. This is not cool.” If you also notice, November 1, Christmas music starts, and all the Black Friday deals start.
Jessica: Thank God I haven’t heard Christmas music yet.
T.H.: By Friday it feels, come on, like, just a minute.
Jessica: Well, I appreciate that because I’m like, whatever, I’m always happy to see a sale. But I feel with the stuff that we’re talking about, the only upside of the fact that stores, retail, everyone puts the holiday stuff out so early, honestly means that for all of us that are separated, divorced, going through divorce, it makes you start thinking about it, which allows you to plan.
Jessica: Because if you don’t start thinking about it, if you’re procrastinating, like I’m not going to deal with it until the week before Thanksgiving, or the week before Christmas, or Hanukkah, or whatever it is that you celebrate, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, because you’re not really going to be able to do all the things that we’re telling you that you’re going to need to think about.
T.H.: That’s actually the absolute worst thing that you can do is not plan for the holiday.
T.H.: You have no idea of what is coming your way. You have no idea of how the second first time is going to feel. Your traditions are different. Your table has different people at it. Different people are calling you and not calling you. You have different people on your list of who you give a gift to or don’t give a gift to. Number one thing is definitely to plan, and there are two different things here, right? If you’re going through a separation, or you’re already divorced, you should, if you don’t already, have a holiday plan in place: who has the kids, for how long, on which days, New Year’s, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Hanukkah, whatever holidays—
T.H.: Thanksgiving, and the weekend, and football games. Think about the way it’s been all the years prior. Then for yourself, first think about, okay, what can I handle? Can I host Thanksgiving again? Is that what I want to do? Do I want to have the pressure of Christmas Day opening presents in my house? Think about what you’re ready for right now. It might change over the years, but think about what you’re ready for right now. If you don’t have your kids with you, we’re going to talk about that in a minute. Because that’s a whole other plan that you have to get into. If you have your kids, number one, have a plan. Be sure you know which days you have them and which days you do not, at what hours, and what family is included and not included.
Jessica: Also, I mean, for me, one of the big things, I’ve always loved the fact that you still totally charged ahead and did it, but I haven’t done holiday cards in 15 years since Daren and I split up. I don’t know—I wasn’t ready in the beginning to just have one with me and the kids. Then over the years, I was with Boston for five years, and then Leo and I got married, and everything was so in the end, temporary. I just never got my shit together for it. And so I really just haven’t. I’m bringing this up because a) if you love holiday cards and that’s a big thing for you, then you should feel comfortable doing it in a way that you’re proud of moving forward. But I will say this, when you don’t send out holiday cards, you stop getting holiday cards.
T.H.: It’s true. I mean, I’m like, “Holy shit, I forgot to send it to them,” and then I’ve got an extra 10 that I can send out.
Jessica: No, but I mean, I used to get a lot of holiday cards. I would say at this point, over the last probably at least five years, I get definitely less than 10, maybe like five or six from my closest friends. I’m just putting that out there. Because if holiday cards giving and receiving is something that brings you joy and makes you happy, and it’s meaningful and important to you, then you actually do want to consider figuring out a way to do holiday cards that works for you because that’s the reciprocity.
Jessica: People stop sending them if you don’t send them.
T.H.: Yeah. Well, hopefully not. But they definitely do, because they forget, and then they’re like, “Holy crap, look at the address.” I remember shifting. I honestly don’t really remember too many cards with my ex in it because he really wasn’t around. I think that when my marriage really started actually falling apart visibly, I just put the kids on the card. I had started just putting the kids and the dog on the card. But when I separated from him, I put myself back in it. In my very first one is a selfie of me and the kids in our kitchen. Like, Jess, I was like, “Oh my God, we’re going to do a card.”
T.H.: And so every year, it’s me and the kids and the dog. Now that I’m with Frank, Frank also gets a picture on the card. But listen, you guys can go to CVS, and you can get holiday cards. It’s also nice to write a personal note to people who have been there for you, people who have reached out for you and been a person that you expect or didn’t expect, and to put something handwritten. Okay, so plan, if you’re with your kids, as far as holiday cards.
Jessica: But that also brings me to the next thing, which we were going to talk about, which is you’re the boss now. You’re now the boss of you. You can celebrate the holiday however you want, whether you have kids or don’t.
T.H.: Totally. Yeah.
Jessica: This is the opportunity for you to create new meaningful traditions for yourself and your family.
Jessica: There may be things that you’ve done over the years, either that you grew up with and so you’ve brought them into your home, and that’s something that is very meaningful to you. At the same time, there may be things that your spouse had done growing up and that were meaningful to them, that you incorporated, that you didn’t really care about those traditions. You really have the opportunity now to figure out what works for you and figure out maybe there’s something new that you can do for yourself or with the kids that makes the holiday really special for you.
T.H.: I feel the holidays were always about everybody else.
T.H.: We don’t celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Hanukkah. So Hanukkah is all about getting the kids a gift every single night, especially when they were little, when I could get away with one Barbie doll, one car—
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
T.H.: Now it’s like, “Can I get these $200 jeans, please?”
Jessica: Right, and an iPad.
T.H.: Well, that’s just like all your nights.
T.H.: So, traditions, listen, I know a lot of people who used to have very large family gatherings and they used to host all the time. If you’re not up for it this year, then say, “I’m not up for it this year.”
T.H.: And if you have a sibling or friends or whatever, reach out to them. They probably have meant to reach out to you and forgot, or were afraid and didn’t know what to say and didn’t want to make you feel bad. Reach out to people. Jessica literally always knows she always has an invite to my house. But I still remind her, “What are you doing Mother’s Day? What are you doing Thanksgiving?”
Jessica: And I always appreciate that.
T.H.: I didn’t ask her about Thanksgiving because she’s always away.
Jessica: That’s my one family holiday. Right, exactly.
T.H.: Right, so then I don’t put it out there. But my tradition with my kids is to go for a hike. Because around Thanksgiving, it’s beautiful out, so we’re outside as much as we can be. I do not cook, although recently, I have been cooking, by the way. But in general terms, I’m never making a turkey. And so over the years, I love to have people in my home, but I would assign everybody something to bring.
T.H.: “Okay, you bring an appetizer, you bring a side dish, you bring this, that, and the other thing.” If I choose to go and pick it up at Kings, then everyone’s going to be fine with that, you know? But for me, it’s everybody being together in my house. That was something that was always important to me with my kids. I wanted family around. So if that meant we got on a plane and we went to Florida, then that’s what we did. But traditions can be as simple as always going for a walk, breakfast in bed, because the kids are home, watching movies together. It doesn’t have to cost you money to have a new tradition in your home. Honestly, new traditions can be all year round. My kids and I started the tradition of dance parties when we moved into our home as soon as I separated, because we had empty rooms everywhere.
T.H.: And talk to your kids. Keep the line of communication open. If your kids like to cook, let them bake something with you. There’s everything that you can do. I have taken my kids to see the balloons, Macy’s Day Parade. But when they were little, I didn’t really want to schlep three kids into New York City, so we watched—the parade was on all day long.
Jessica: I also just want to say when we’re talking about holidays, I mean, we’re sitting here and we’re talking about the fall and winter holiday season, like Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukkah, New Year’s, that kind of thing. But there are other holidays around the year, and my birthday happens to fall in the winter. I just want to make sure that everybody understands what we’re talking about applies to everything. I like to celebrate my birthday.
T.H.: Me too.
Jessica: I always, every year, for as long as I can remember, would organize a dinner with four or five other couples, I would say about 10 people, and book a reservation and just have a dinner with the people that I love around me. I remember when I was younger having visions of what my 50th birthday would be like. Then my 50th birthday came and I was single. I was like, “I don’t think I’m going to plan a party for myself.” That wasn’t how I envisioned that I would spend my 50th birthday. I envisioned that I would be with someone who would plan a party for me. Not a surprise necessarily, but be part of that process. I really wasn’t going to do anything. Then I realized when I thought about it alone, I was going to be sadder if I did nothing and didn’t mark the day in a way that I would enjoy. And so I did plan a party, and it ended up being so much better than I could have expected. And so I’m just bringing this up because if you are a person who generally loves Thanksgiving, or Christmas is your favorite holiday, or you hate New Year’s, whatever the case may be, it’s easy to get stuck in the rut when you are going through divorce, or when you’re divorced, that you’re like, “I just don’t want to be around people. I don’t want to have to deal—”
T.H.: I don’t want to deal.
Jessica: Right. But if it’s a holiday that generally brings you joy, please stretch yourself outside of your comfort zone and find a way to celebrate it. Because I’m pretty sure like me, you would end up being more disappointed if you don’t mark that holiday and where you are in your life and whatever, than if you just try to blow it off. That actually can be so much more depressing. Everybody’s different—if you revel in your alone time, whatever. I’m not judging. I’m just saying you really have to recognize what’s important to you and make sure that you mark the day, if it’s a day that you always have loved and always have appreciated celebrating.
T.H.: Honestly, during my marriage, my ex not only didn’t celebrate me or my birthday, he didn’t even acknowledge it. So the minute I separated, I was like, “I’m freaking having parties. I am always going to have a birthday party.” My 50th happened to over COVID, and Jessica came out, friends came out, and we took pictures from a distance.
Jessica: Social distancing in our masks.
T.H.: Right, and my kids and Frank planned this dinner for me. Then I had to redo a year later where I did the party, not fully what I had planned, but it was almost better. I really loved it. So, listen, you may not even know what you like, because you haven’t really discovered it. But if you have an inkling like “I think I want to do this. I think I want to do that,” don’t wait. Just do it.
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Jessica: I just want to jump back for a second when we were talking about gifts and stuff for the holidays, and how Hanukkah, it’s easier when your kids are younger.
T.H.: Let’s talk about budgeting and spending.
Jessica: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Because I feel you have to start planning what your budget is going to be for the holidays. It may not look anything like what your prior budget was. Maybe you never had a budget before. Maybe you’ve always been on a budget. Regardless, when you are getting divorced, or you’re divorced, you have to be realistic about what you can spend, and not let the parent guilt of your divorce mislead you into thinking that you need to ply your kids with gifts and spend money that you don’t have that’s going to put you in a worse position later. Something that I do for a lot of different things, primarily, I started this for my taxes, I created a bank account. I literally call it my Tax Escrow account. You can do this with gifts. You can do this with any kind of big purchase or big thing, a trip, whatever it is. I have money taken out of my regular savings account every week of every month the entire year long. That money gets pulled out and put into what I call my Tax Escrow account. At the end of the year, when I have to pay my taxes, I’m not looking around for where I’m going to find the money. I’m not worried about it or stressed about it. That happened to me once, and I will never let that happen again. I strongly suggest that if you haven’t started something like that yet, it’s still early enough. You still have several weeks before the holidays. If you are concerned at all about oh my god, I’m going to have to withdraw $500 at once, $1,000 at once, whatever it is, just start taking out a couple hundred, or $50, or whatever, something every day, so that you don’t feel the pain as much. Then all of a sudden, in however many weeks, you’re going to have the amount that you want, and you have to divide it and you have to do the math.
T.H.: Well, and also, you don’t want to have January come along and have a bill with 22% interest that you can’t pay.
Jessica: That’s right.
T.H.: Let’s really be practical about budgeting. Now budgeting for the holidays can go into two big buckets, as far as I see. But you might have others. One is if you’re hosting, because it’s really expensive to host—
Jessica: It’s really expensive.
T.H.: —to buy all the food, to clean up. Then of course, you want to go to Home Goods and you want some pretty new tablecloths, and these little napkin holders. Okay, so hosting, and then gifting, those are the big things, as far as I see with budget. I think that, and I had said this in a post on Instagram, for the holidays for gifting, even if you have the money, it’s so much more—I think it’s more meaningful anyway—if you if you cook something, if you write a note to somebody, if you spend time with somebody: “I want to take you out to lunch, Jess. We have not been together in forever. This is the Hanukkah gift. We’re going to go out to lunch in the city, and then we’re walking around.” Do you know what that’ll cost me? A shit ton less.
T.H.: And you know what else? She’ll never forget. And I’ll never forget because it was time together. I think that if you’re going through a separation, or you’re divorced, or recently divorced, or whatever, you remember things like this. There are certain things in your life going forward that are very loud in your head. The time that you spend with people and the time you don’t get to spend with people will be very, very loud. So that is a gift. My kids and I, they know that I just want to spend time with them. She still wants the $200 jeans, by the way, but we split it now. She’s a young adult and she has her own money. It was just her birthday actually, and I bought her a really yummy, cute outfit from The Gap—40% off plus another 10% off. So the sales are crazy if you’re going to buy. The whole thing cost me $47. She loves it. And I took her out to dinner. So, I said, “You know, do you still want that work bag?” She goes, “Mom, you gave me a yummy sweatshirt and pants that I love, and I’m always going to think of you. You took me out to dinner at the place that I wanted to go to and we spent time together. I don’t need anything else.” That’s me trying to keep up with her dad, which will never happen by the way. I’ll never get there. But you’re wasting energy trying to do that. If you just take a step back and realize that if you want to teach your kids what’s really important, then spend your money and your time doing those things, modeling those things. Then as far as budget with hosting, honestly, I have so much stuff from when I was married that I have been digging through, and old is new again. It’s like cool to have old China out now. We have a great store here called Amazing Savings. They have huge charger plates that are 25 cents each. There are ways to do this on a budget, to get a few new things and not spend a lot of money, and make a beautiful table. Go and buy flowers at an inexpensive place, cut them up into little vases. You can be creative, you can be scrappy, and you will have a beautiful holiday. You can assign everybody to bring food. We are hosting—Frank is cooking the turkey, but I am damn well cooking only one other dish. Everybody else is bringing alcohol and food so that we are not breaking our banks. So that’s my input on budget for gifts and hosting.
Jessica: The other thing that I’ll say about gifts is my ex is really not great about gifts. I mean, when we were married, like, yes, he gave me birthday gifts. My kids were two and four when we got divorced. I planned parties for them, so of course, they got gifts. But he pretty much hasn’t really gotten them gifts throughout the years. We’re really close; I was always—
T.H.: Well, hold on, he probably thinks he has, just not on their birthday.
Jessica: That is partly what he thinks. But I also, for their birthdays, for many years, would say to him, “Jake wants this. Zoey wants this. Do you want to go in on it together?” Then it’s like, whatever, we would give them the iPad, and it would be from both of us. I stopped doing that several years ago just because the things that they wanted, like, I could get them an iPad, and I didn’t have to share it with him. But we’ve still done a little bit of that, like a trip that Jake took after he graduated high school, we both chipped in for it. But my point is, you and your ex may not celebrate holidays the same way, and your priorities may be very different. My ex grew up where there was not a big emphasis on the gifts on the holiday. It was as T.H. just said, it’s just you’re getting what you need throughout the year. When the holiday came around, it wasn’t like, “Oh, I have this list of 10 things that he would give to his parents.” With my kids, from me, my kids get gifts to mark the holidays. They get Hanukkah gifts—not every night anymore. They get birthday gifts, things like that. You don’t have to make excuses or defend your ex for the way that they choose to celebrate. If you have kids that are at an age that they come to you and are sad that their mom or dad did not give them a gift or mark the holiday in the way that we’re traditionally used to, it’s okay to just say, “Look, people celebrate holidays different ways. This is how I celebrate the holiday.” You don’t have to bad mouth the way they celebrate it. You can just make it clear that this is something that is a priority to you. I mean, look, we know a lot of people who don’t give birthday cards because it’s not important to them, so they don’t think that it’s necessarily important to give. Just keep in mind you guys may very well celebrate the holidays differently. It’s just important that your kids understand that so that there’s no confusion and so that you feel good about what you’re doing.
T.H.: Yeah, and keep it all positive. “Guys, I am so excited for the holidays this weekend. What do you guys want to do? You have four days off of school. I want you to each write down your top two things that you want to do. Let’s all sit down, we’ll pick out of a hat what we get to do, the things that we prioritize.” You can even say, “I want you to pick things that don’t cost any money.” Because I think if we all learned anything from COVID, the time that we got to spend together, as horrific as that those years were, our kids were home. We had dinners together. We cooked. We walked every single day. That was such a gift. You can gently remind them of that.
Jessica: Also, a huge thing about money, I’ve read before that the royal family in England, their Christmas Day of gifts is all gag gifts. You can’t spend more than $20.
Jessica: And it’s something that they’ll love or that’s funny. It’s so not about spending as much money as you want.
T.H.: Right! You can make it like that.
Jessica: So keep in mind, you can do something fun and meaningful.
T.H.: Well, but you also have kids who want an iPhone, and everybody in the royal family probably has one. But yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, there are ways to make it fun. We touched a little bit on guilt, but I want to just really shout it out about holiday guilt during the holidays. You’re going to compare. It’s normal. You’re going to compare yourself to everybody else you talk to. You’re going to compare yourself to your past. You’re going to compare yourself with what your ex is doing now. You’re going to compare yourself with people on TV and all the Hallmark movies and these beautiful families, and everybody’s doing whatever they’re doing, okay? Don’t, alright? Really, it’s like being on social media too much and seeing things that you don’t want to see. Don’t torture yourself like that, okay? Your life is beautiful the way that you decide to live it, and you stay true to you and your family and what you feel good doing. Like, “Hey, guys, let’s go and be a tourist in the city.” Go drive to a new town and explore and have lunch. That’s an adventure that my kids will still do, and they’re in their twenties now. So dealing with guilt and holiday guilt is hard, especially when this is your first one solo. That’s why, at the very beginning, we talked about make a plan. I want to say one more thing before we talk about what to do alone if you don’t have your kids. I really want you to set up an emergency plan for yourself, because I was naive in thinking that I was going to be fine. I would have taken fine over bad. I hate the word fine, by the way. But I wanted to be able to be fine over the holidays. It’s going to suck, but I wanted to be alright. It’s really important to know who’s going to be around of your friends. Who are you comfortable reaching out to? There are lots of resources online like Better Help. I’m Not Alone Challenge is another one, free mental health services and support, especially over the holidays. We will share those with you. But you need to make sure that you have the support that you need. Maybe find a podcast that makes you laugh, or you enjoy listening to, or makes you cry and you need to get the cry out. Whatever your need is, support yourself and ask for help.
Jessica: Yeah, definitely. When it comes to being alone, look, some people love being alone. That’s their happy place.
T.H.: Well, but people, I feel, love being alone when they don’t have to be alone.
Jessica: I’m shifting away. I’m moving on to the next thing, which is if you are going to be alone for the holidays, you may be relishing the fact that you’re going to be alone for the holidays.
Jessica: And other people, that’s not their happy place. I like my alone time, but generally, I get filled up when I’m around other people. We advocate having a plan regardless. But your plan can be to do things alone or to do things with other people. If you love being alone and you enjoy going out to restaurants by yourself, or going to the movies by yourself—like, I feel like if I’m alone, I would want to go have a facial or go to some kind of a spa day. I’ve never traveled by myself. I don’t know that that’s really who I am. But if that is something that you’ve done, or you’ve always wanted to do, spend a night or a weekend someplace that you’ve been wanting to go, where you don’t have to wait to find someone who wants to take that trip with you. On the flip side, if you like being around other people and you have other single friends or other divorced friends whose schedules align, plan a great group dinner or dinner with your friends. Plan a girls’ trip or a guys’ trip for a night or two with the people that you know are also not going to be around their families. There are ways to make your holiday fantastic if you’re going to be alone, both by being alone, or by making sure that you’re not alone. I hope that makes sense.
T.H.: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I think that some easy ways to not be alone and also feel good about yourself is to volunteer. You can go and wrap gifts at the mall.
Jessica: Yeah, I love that.
T.H.: You can go and work at a soup kitchen. If you go to church, go to church more often. Sign up for the support groups that they have going on over the holidays. There are also a lot of great meet ups if you go to Meetup. There are in person meet ups in your town for everything. It could be for singles, it could be for friendship, it could be book clubs. There are virtual book clubs. There are ways to be alone but not be by yourself.
T.H.: You can go to the park. You can walk the mall. It’s also a time to test yourself. I went to the movies over a Thanksgiving that I chose to be alone. I went to the movies by myself. It was actually pretty freaking good. I ate all the popcorn myself. I sat exactly where I wanted to sit. Because I was nervous about it, I actually went in, put down my jacket, and then walked out. I got the seat I wanted, but I didn’t want to walk in until the lights were off. Now I had a good friend whose perspective is first of all, if you see somebody there, then I would think they’d say, “Are you alone? You want to come sit with us?”
T.H.: And if they don’t, or they make you feel badly, fuck them.
Jessica: Fuck them.
T.H.: So no reason why you shouldn’t go to the movies alone, okay? And the holidays, they’ve tons of movies out there. Go see a chick flick. I think Meg Ryan has a new movie coming out with David Duchovny. Anyway, you can go and give it a shot. I only went that one time, by the way, but I’m not afraid to do it again, if I choose to.
Jessica: You know I don’t cook. Every so often, I’ll make taco meat for my kids, whatever. But the truth is—
T.H.: You make meatloaf.
Jessica: And I do make meatloaf. Cook something. If there’s something you’ve always wanted to try to cook or to bake, having the time to be able to do that, clean out your closets, be productive some way that you’ve been meaning to do, because that’s the perfect opportunity. All of us walk around all the time saying, “Oh my God, there aren’t enough hours in the day to get done everything that I want to do. I want to learn about whatever it is, and I just don’t have the time.” The holidays is actually a gift of time, especially if you’re alone, to be able to do those kinds of things. So pick up something and cross it off your to-do list.
T.H.: The number one thing I think with all of it this though, is to get up and move every single day, because it will get you down, and you can definitely get in the dumps and have the blues and just be like, “Eh, I don’t really need to clean my closet. I’ll just binge watch something on Netflix.” Make sure that you really do schedule something every day, even if it means I am going for a walk, I am going to call a friend, I am going to—whatever it is, schedule one thing every single day on your calendar, on your phone with an alert—maybe put two so you can’t get out of it so easily.
Jessica: Just motivate. Motivate.
T.H.: Yeah, and motivate. We are here. We are cheering you on. You have a choice. If you don’t feel like cleaning out the closet all day, don’t pressure yourself.
Jessica: Well, you shouldn’t. That shouldn’t be your whole day activity. We’ve even had episodes about how to do it productively and breaking it down into small pieces.
T.H.: Right, right. Don’t put any pressure on yourself. Don’t drink too much. Don’t eat too much. But it could be a time of self discovery, like, what do you like? What do you want? What do you want to try that’s new, whatever? One other alert, if you are looking to date over the holidays and you’re alone, or you’re with your kids, but you want to try out the dating apps or go on a date—be careful.
Jessica: You’re vulnerable.
T.H.: It’s the holiday time. You’re vulnerable. Someone else might be vulnerable. So be intentional. Okay, I’m going out for a drink. That’s it. Wear a great outfit. Get dressed. It does actually feel very good. I was at three events last week, and I actually missed getting dressed. But when you have to get dressed every day, then you’re like, “Ugh, I don’t want to.” But get dressed, go and meet someone. If they’re a dud, you got dressed, and you did that really for yourself and you went out. If it worked out, then you had a nice drink and you met somebody new. But be cautious dating during the holidays. If you guys have any other questions for us, DM us, email us, or reach out to us. We are here for you. We are around. We have tons of podcasts that we will tag with this episode about—
Jessica: Emotions, getting through the holidays.
T.H.: —the holidays, emotions, your kids, gifting, all of those things. You can go back and see what we’ve talked about in the past.
Jessica: We hope this has been really helpful for you. This is the kind of stuff and information and advice that we would have always wanted when we were back in the day going through our separations and divorces. If you enjoyed this episode of the Divorce etc… podcast with the exEXPERTS today, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast. Because when you do that, we get bumped up on the platforms so more people can find us and listen as they’re going through divorce and beyond. Check the show notes for more info on us, Divorce etc…, and exEXPERTS. And of course, share this episode with anyone you know who can benefit from listening. Have a great day.