Organizing After Divorce, With DivorceRx


It’s important to get organized after a divorce or other life-changing event. It not only feels good to have things in their place, but it helps improve your mental health and wellness, as well as the way you feel about your home. Michelle Sarao, of Divorce Rx, talks us through the process of organizing and also letting go.


  • There are a lot of details to think about during and after a divorce. Sometimes, the “stuff” that is left is the last thing people think about dealing with.
  • Some people aren’t bothered by trashing or letting go of the stuff. Others may need some time to put it away and come back to later.
  • It’s ok if you want to keep some things, but it’s also ok if you want to just let it all go.

OUR GUEST – Michelle Sarao – DivorceRx


Welcome to another episode of the exEXPERTS DIVORCE etc… Podcast where we give you all kinds of information and tips on everything divorce. Why? We’ve lived it, so we get it! We’re T.H. & Jessica.

T.H.: Today’s podcast guest is Michelle Sarao. She started DivorceRx out of her own need and her own experience. She’s also real a life expert like Jessica and I are. She is titled a professional organizer, which she is, but her skills are far more diverse than that, coming from her experience and everything else. Welcome to our show today.

Michelle: Thank you so much for having me.

T.H.: Today we’re going to talk about really why it’s important to get organized, especially after a divorce or any life-changing event. It’s nice to have things in their place, but ultimately, it includes your mental health, wellness, and overall the way you feel in your home. You want to be in a safe place that feels good and has good energy giving back. That’s what we’re really going to dig into today with Michelle. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your story, how Divorce Rx even started, and then let’s dig into why it’s really important to stay organized.

Michelle: Sure, I’d be happy to. My own story quickly is that I am a child of divorce. I then became a teacher, married myself with three children, and then divorced about six years ago, and was a professional organizer about 15 years ago. I was working in small businesses and homes, a lot of families with small kids that either the parents were not organized before, but when they/you start adding kids on, life gets busier, and everything sort of explodes. I have a lot of experience there. When I sort of came back after my own divorce and did a lot of work on myself, I had unfortunately older parents who needed some attention, so I wasn’t able to work as much as I would have liked to. But when I came back to figure out what I wanted to do at this point in my life, I decided that I was going to pull on my experience as a professional organizer and then my personal experience as someone who went through a divorce with three kids. We happen to have a 50/50 custody split so I watched all of the logistics and the details and the snafus, which I’ve never used that word, but I’m not sure where that came from. Anyway, it works–All the snafus that come up with the back and forth. I saw that as an opportunity for me to put myself into this space and help other parents who were going through a divorce with the organizing, both of the logistics that going back and forth, as well as in their home in the physical space.

As we all know, divorce is going to involve some type of movement whether it’s both people are moving, one person’s moving, one person is setting up a new house, two people, and all of the different variations. There’s going to be some kind of stuff situation going on. I felt like when you go, as we all know, you go to get divorced and you’ve got your legal, you’ve got your financial, hopefully, you’ve got your mental health, but what about the stuff? What about the logistics? I didn’t see that anyone was really dealing with that. I felt that there was a space in the organizing world for me to deal with that, and that’s how DivorceRx was born.

T.H.: Going through it yourself, were you thinking, God, I’m so glad I know how to do this because otherwise, this could make my life even more complicated? Were there times along the way, now looking back, that you’re like, God, I’m so glad that I understand how organizing is really important for my mental health, for my kids’ well-being, and for the energy in the house? Were there times that you stopped, and that’s kind of what got you where you are now?

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. There were times when all I wanted to do was lay in bed with the covers over my head and I didn’t want to do anything. But what I noticed, because organizing comes naturally to me, I would be around the house and just naturally start organizing different things.

I noticed the difference that when the physical space was organized, and I would regularly go through things and get rid of things that we weren’t using, things that may have been my ex-husband’s, maybe something that I was waiting for a long time to get rid of, that gave me a sense of calm. It was a good distraction for me.

I also saw that when my kids would come to me, they would come home from school or whatever, and I found that if I could get their rooms uncluttered and happy as you said, the positive energy and pictures up of not just them and them but also I found it was important to consider, and this didn’t happen right away, but I would say over time, it dawned on me it would be nice for them to have pictures of them with their dad and it’s okay.

They still need to see them and to see him and to give them an environment that made them feel comfortable and warm and as good as possible in a difficult situation.

Jessica: Yeah, you know, Michelle, T.H., and I always talk so much about how everybody’s divorce situation is different. There are so many similarities always but also so many differences. What were the main snafus so to speak that you saw that you were thinking these are things that probably most people would need to address?

Michelle: Right. So first of all, first I would say the offender is a lot of people after they go through this stuff with their exes, whether they’re staying in the home, or oftentimes people, and oftentimes women are downsizing, they’ve got to move to a smaller place and they would rent storage spaces. They just didn’t have the mental capacity to say, alright, let me take the time and let me look through what do I really need here. They would go and they would spend money on a storage unit, which they didn’t need to really. They wouldn’t take the time to go through this stuff because understandably, there was so much else going on, but there was money being wasted. Then they would oftentimes throw boxes of stuff in a relative’s home or a friend’s home. Their stuff would just be scattered all over the place, which is totally understandable, but that’s why I often say during and after divorce is when I like to come in, but truthfully, I would love to come in at the best time, which is before, as you’re going through it, to sort of sit down and say, alright, what are you going to need here? It’s daunting, but I think what I found is most people, once you get rolling, are really into it and you can move pretty quickly. At the end of it, people are so relieved that they don’t have to spend the money on renting storage space. Another snafu, as far as not even just the physical space, but the logistics that people don’t realize, and this is something that I had to go through myself, you don’t know what you don’t know, is something I often say, and so I had no idea that I was going to show up at the doctor and I was going to need also an insurance card, or I was going to want to go away and we should both have a passport, or there’s something called a passport card, how do you get in touch with the teachers, all of those things that both parents are going to need to know. So I came upon a lot of these logistics that were like little gnats, but they cause a lot of problems. They are stressful when you’re already going through a lot of stress. I saw the ability from my point of view to say, you know what, I’ve had to deal with all of this. Here are all of these different categories of stuff to sort of front-load with people and say, these are the things that you’re going to have to consider. And also, the ripple effect of not being ready for these various situations affects your children. You’re at the doctor and you don’t have the insurance card? The doctor can’t see you, and then you’ve got to leave. But there are so many as I’m sure you can imagine. There are so many different experiences. All of these different issues were things that kept coming up that made me feel like if I could just give people this information on the front end, front-loaded in, they wouldn’t be picking up the pieces as they go along. It’s a lot like stumbling in the dark, which I certainly did.

T.H.: I think also you don’t want to be judged as a parent when you’re going through a divorce. For you to prepare people, they don’t know what they don’t know, they don’t know what they’re going to feel, but to be as prepared as possible, is also what Jessica and I are trying to do here with exEXPERTS. We want you to be prepared with the right questions. We want to educate you so you make intelligent decisions that are not just emotionally driven. I think that’s really great. You also talked about going through the process. Jessica has moved more times than I can count on my hands, so she’s like a pro at it. I am now coined the sentimental stockpiler because I just moved out of my home, but I literally moved out of my home with my husband, and we put everything in storage because we were going to build a home. If I even look at it, already I had been saving report cards and swim team results and their big storks, the cardboard storks that were on our front lawn, literally the basket with their name and everything on it announcing their birth and whatever. Then we separated and then I moved into the home with my kids. I brought it all in from storage, didn’t even look at it. My wedding dress is there, I mean, everything. Then when I had to move out in June because I sold my home, I was like holy shit, I don’t even know where to begin. Jessica was like throw that shit out, throw it out. You don’t need it, you never looked at it. You don’t want it. I feel like I was always afraid that I would forget. That’s why I was afraid to throw it out. That’s why I think that you’re very valuable because people want to be validated on their decisions. So is it okay that I keep a small box with my wedding album, a bunch of pictures that show me and my ex happy, and a few of those things that if the kids ever want it, it’s there? In the process of going through all those pictures, I have a hard time remembering being happy in my marriage, because the unhappy really kind of suffocated the happy. Going back, I was like, God I think that I was happy. Okay, so I’m glad to know now that I was happy when I got married, and we had many great years of being happy. Those are like real smiles on my face. That’s not bullshit. Then once I saw that I was like, okay, now I can throw it away. I think having a friend to go through that with you, and you are friends, I was saying in my conversation with Michelle before this podcast, I feel like we’re friends. She’s just got that easygoing approach and she’s very understanding and empathetic. Because, look, she’s lived it, so she gets it too. I involved my kids a very little bit. I let them look through some of their memories that they don’t even know is a memory. But when it came to certain pictures, I asked my oldest daughter, what do you want me to do with this? And she goes, throw them out. They’re not my memories. And I was like, oh my God, you are right. They’re not your memories. They’re my memories. My younger daughter’s like me so I like that. And my son’s four, so he doesn’t know anything. He doesn’t even know who those people were in those pictures, basically. So how do you involve the kids on a level that’s healthy for you, so you’re still serving your purpose of removing clutter and things that aren’t necessary for your life, not healthy to have around and keeping things that do matter? How do you involve the kids so they’re also making these choices with you but not feeling like you’re throwing out all their shit?

Michelle: Right. So you’ve touched on so many good points here, so many different things. The first thing I want to say is that it’s great because I know in our preliminary conversation, I know that the two of you had very different divorce experiences, which is fabulous because you’re bringing those two sides of it to this platform, which is why you’re covering so many more bases than you could.

This example of how you each deal with stuff, so to speak, is another example of how it’s great because you cover so much ground, but I’m going to propose that you would want to come to the middle. I’m going to propose that you would want to do balance. I know you asked about the children. The other good point that you made was, and I love when people involve their children and ask them, when it’s appropriate of course, because of their experiences, we project so much of our stuff on them. It just it’s so good for them and it’s so good for your relationship with them to just ask them, what do you think? It doesn’t mean that you need to do exactly what they’re saying or not. It’s just like a respect thing to them, which is such a great relationship builder.

I would say that, as you said, some of the stuff is going to be your memories and some of the stuff is their memories. The balance of coming together, and I’m actually working with somebody now who’s got a fairly large house, we’re coming upon so much stuff that is mixed, I would say in that first kind of sort through, you’re saying okay, what are my memories, and what are the kids?

The kids will have their own memory box, so to speak, and that’s how I did it with my own kids. I have my own mementos and memories kind of space, which back to the balance, is limited. It doesn’t overflow. There is a box and there is a representation of the time, the person, the activity, whatever it is, but you can’t keep everything of course, because what would you do with it? Where would you put it? In a box, but that’s okay. You can have a box that’s limited, because what’s the point of keeping all the stuff? In my opinion, the point of keeping all this stuff is so that when you would like to go back and have that experience of those feelings, of reliving, of those memories. You don’t have to search through your attic, in your basement, and your closets, and every shelf and every bag and every box, to find out where are those memories. You want those memories condensed into a box so that you’re not looking all over the place for them. You can have that experience and that is the reason why you’re keeping the stuff in the first place. Also, people often feel like, oh, I want to go back and I want to look at everything, but the truth of the matter is our lives are really busy.

We want to take time to do this, but most of us, and I can speak for myself and most people, don’t have a day to sit with memories of fourth grade, child two. We just don’t have that. That’s where the whole representation comes in there. That works also not just for kids but as we get older. Unfortunately, both of my parents have passed away, and Friday was the second anniversary of my father’s death. And so I have in my closet a box that has various letters and pictures. I mean, certainly, I have other albums, but just mementos, whatever it was that was meaningful to me, things around his death, and letters that people may have written to me, etc. If it’s Father’s Day, if it’s his birthday, I go to the box, I take the box out, and I spend some time with it. I know exactly where it is, and so that’s the point of the stuff and those memories. It’s not to fill every crack and space in your house of course, but I understand that a lot of people have that anxiety over it’s going to be lost. All of these things are going to be lost to time and to my memory. The other thing you can do, and I have done this with a lot of people, even pre my divorce organizing, is people will take pictures of the stuff and you can save it like that. You can print out pictures, you can make albums, but the idea is just to have it accessible, or have it front and center. Where is that when you want it?

Jessica: For people who are listening, who have a lot of work to do, and who haven’t called you yet for your services, what would you say are the three most important steps, the three most important things to consider, that someone could get started, practical tips that they can actually get going with today?

Michelle: Right, okay, I love this question. The first thing I would say, and I’ll speak specifically about people who are going through a divorce, and mostly women who are going through a divorce, the one thing that I find so common is their heads are just swimming with stuff. It’s just that monkey brain that is so common, and there’s a lot of swirling. The first thing I would say is whatever’s on your mind, just get it out of your mind and onto paper. Because when it’s out of your head, and you can look at it in black and white, it doesn’t become so overwhelming. Then you’re not dealing with the emotions of it all. You’re dealing with the facts of cleaning out this room. It’s not recycling over and over every day in your head. Then if it does, you can remind yourself, oh, yeah, it’s out of my head. I would say that’s the first thing. I would say to give yourself reasonable goals. Say you have a home office and right now you have been just throwing stuff in your home office. You want it to be an office for yourself, and there’s room enough for a couple of kids to have desks in there to work once in a while if they want to. There are pictures in there and there are all kinds of stuff in there. You’ve got wrapping paper and sports equipment, all kinds of stuff jumbled together. This is overwhelming and I see T.H. is laughing.

T.H.: I’m not giving you a tour of the office right now, but I feel it. I understand.

Michelle: It’s overwhelming in general. The second thing I would say is to make reasonable goals, right?

Start with one room. I often like people to start with the bedroom, because I think that people who are going through a divorce, need an oasis, and the bedroom is the first space. There’s so much emotion connected with the bedroom. This is connected with the second thing, and I would say to give yourself goals that are reasonable within each room. Let’s go back to the home office. I brought up two different spaces. Let’s go back to the home office. I would say the first thing you’re going to do is sort through everything, but that might seem really overwhelming. So I would say, okay, can you give me 15 minutes every day this week? Can you for 15 minutes, set a timer, put on great music, and can you start sorting through your stuff in the office? Most people say, sure, I can do that. Then by the end of the week, you’ve spent, I don’t know, an hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes in that room, but you didn’t feel it. I like to equate it with working out. It feels overwhelming, you’re not going to go run a marathon, but can you take a walk around the block? Sure. Then once you’ve taken a walk around the block, your walk gets faster. And if you go in there, and maybe on the weekend, you say okay, I’ve got my 15 minutes, but you know what, I have some extra time and this isn’t as bad as I thought it can be. It’s also that initial kind of getting started. It’s not as bad as I thought it was. The third thing that I would say as far as people feeling like they want to get started and they can’t, when you start in a room, let’s say you’ve got everything out of your head, and you’re like, okay, I’m going to start on my home office. I’m going to show up today, 15 minutes, and I’m going to put this music on. People then go, alright, now what? You need to set some zones up for yourself so that what you do today in your 15 minutes isn’t lost. It’s almost like a work area.

It’s like you’re going to have this space as a work in progress. Because what happens if you start those 15 minutes and eight minutes in a kid is screaming and needs you, whatever, someone calls you, whatever emergency happens, or you need to take a break or whatever, what happens then? People oftentimes, this is understandable, but it’s so not necessary, they just go ugh screw this, and they just throw everything back into the closet. Then when you come back tomorrow for your next 15 minutes, you’re in the same place that you were before and it’s very frustrating. If you take even the first 15 minutes of your first day, set up some zones. Here’s the recycle, here’s donate, and here’s a redirect. That’s a big box, and there’s lots of stuff that’s going to be in that home office that does not belong there. If you set yourself up with different boxes as you go along, and label those boxes so that you can you can clearly do a visual sweep of the room, and you can see where everything is. If you’ve got a box of pictures that you found in the home office and you’re in your room, and you go, oh, look here are some pictures that don’t belong in my room, but now I’m in the sorting process. I know in my head in my office I’ve got a box of pictures, I can just as I’m walking downstairs to make dinner, I can grab those pictures and throw them into that box. It’s a constant kind of process, that initial sorting.

T.H.: There are a few things you said. So, I love stationery. I love Papyrus, and I am a thank you note writer so I never have a shortage of those. When I was cleaning out my desk–when you would come to my home Jess, when you say my house looked like it was neat, and it didn’t look like I had as much shit as I did, but I did. I had probably 15 boxes of thank you notes. The first ones I got rid of were my old last name because I changed my name back to my maiden name. You’ll understand why I’m a sentimental stockpiler. It came from my mother. I found a box of thank you notes from my bat mitzvah–

Jessica: I knew you were going to say that.

T.H.: 13. 13!

Jessica: Well, now you have the same name so now they could come in handy.

T.H.: Yeah, but it’s an old address.

Jessica: I’m kidding.

T.H.: And it’s purple, which is totally not my color. But anyway, that’s the stuff that I was keeping. That was easy. I definitely thought in my head I’m going to start with the drawers in this office also because it’s not so threatening like a picture. This is this is easy. I can do this. When I was looking through pictures I’m like, oh my God, Jessica, and this one, and this one, and this one. I’m like I spent three hours going through pictures. She’s like, you’ve got to just throw them in the box and get to them another day. You can’t waste three hours sorting through your pictures and reliving memories. I lost three hours! Also, my advice, to kind of piggyback on Michelle’s, is when it’s very overwhelming to start with stuff that’s not threatening like books. Do you know how many journals I have that were empty? I literally created boxes on my front porch for donation. I had the donation pickup set for the following Thursday, and I had to go through a certain amount to make it worth their time to come to pick it up. So for me, that was my trick in doing it. It was totally the office and also the kitchen. Like, how many spoons do I need? I had a Cuisinart from my wedding that I never even opened. 1995!

Jessica: That’s a really good example though because I feel a lot of times that’s the stuff where people feel this could come in handy. This could be useful. This is a piece of equipment, whatever it is. I’ve been moving a million times over the past 25 years that I’ve lived in the city. Moving out of my apartment a year ago after my second divorce, I literally still had all the china and crystal from my first marriage, which in and of itself is not necessarily a surprise, except that in all of the years since I’ve gotten it, I’ve probably used it three times, maybe four. Yet I kept packing it and moving it from apartment to apartment to apartment to apartment with like, when I host this holiday and when I do this. I literally finally got to the point a year ago, I’m like I’m not the one hosting the holidays. I’m going to T.H.’s. I don’t need the china and crystal. I sold it all. That’s the kind of stuff I feel sometimes people are like I don’t really necessarily want to get rid of it. I’m never going to want to have the funds put aside to buy a new set of china and crystal and serving pieces and things like that. I feel I’m not a sentimental stockpiler, but I will keep things like that because I feel one day that might come in handy and it might be useful. That’s challenging I think.

Michelle: I think that you hit upon something, that feeling of ‘one day.’ I worked once with a costume person and you should have seen the things that they were holding on to. One day I’m going to need a lobster costume. But you’re not going to need a lobster costume. And if you do, you’re going to make a new lobster costume. By the way, I just want to also say everyone always wants to know what do you hold on to, and what do you save? What does your space look like? My mother, who made me look like a messy disorganized person, was so organized crazy, for some reason, she held on to my bar mitzvah thank you notes. I don’t know why, and they were also purple. So there you go.

Jessica: Why is that?

Michelle: I don’t know, and I didn’t get rid of them because I thought, oh, well, if my mom saved them she must have thought there was some reason. But they’re in a box with other stuff. They’re not just floating around. I know exactly where they are. But I guess my question to you is, you talked a lot about your moving and about putting the boxes on the front porch. I wanted to just highlight and ask you how you felt once you were able to get rid of all the stuff that you got rid of. Or did you not get rid of what you wanted to?

T.H.: I’m the kind of person that must feel productive in one way or another every day, so I go to the gym where I do some form of physical activity every day. And doing that, I felt like I got it out of my house, so I felt productive. I was proud of myself that I accomplished what I said I was going to accomplish. Whatever it looked like on the front porch, it looked like. Going through the garage, that’s a whole other story. That’s like Land of the Lost more than even in my basement. I definitely felt lighter. I always feel good when I feel I’ve been productive, even in the smallest way in a day. You were also talking about setting goals for yourself. That was one of the things, especially at the beginning of Jessica and I starting this. Well, maybe not even then. I used to be an event production. My list of to-do things was endless. I am the queen of Post-it. I’ve got at least four Post-it pads. By the way, my mother is also a Post-it stockpiler.

Jessica: I’m a Post-it stockpiler. They’re everywhere.

T.H.: So the list, I can’t remember which author mentioned it, but it totally was me. They said just make one goal, one thing on your to-do list for a week, and check it off, and then do two. Because I was never going through my to-do list, I could never feel productive. I was never getting to this unrealistic goal that I’ve set for myself. I’m like I could do this, and I could do that, and I can get this done, and I can be there, and I can be here, and the list is still there and it’s getting bigger. So my list, I did exactly what you said Michelle, you’d be very proud. I started writing in a journal as soon as COVID hit. I’m on my third six-month ‘Five Minute Journal’. It gave me the coaching I needed, and I was able to put stuff down. It gave me little thoughts for the day kind of thing. It was very mild and easy for me to get into. I look at a blank page and I’m like, I don’t know what to write. I’m not writing anything. But if you give me prompts then I can write stuff. I was writing and I did actually inadvertently put some of my goals in there. One of them, says, what would make today great? ‘To get this amount of shit out of my house and on my porch, and feel good that I gave it away to breast cancer.’ I’m a survivor of breast cancer, my mother, my aunt, and so many people I know. And so I felt good and productive and lighter. It was like it’s a great wonderful feeling, but it’s hard to get there with the pictures, I will be honest. I’m going to hire you when I’m moving into my new house and all those pictures are coming back.

Jessica: But I think that for the pictures it’s okay to just say, okay, well, I’m organizing all of this stuff. Here are the stacks of pictures. They’re going in this box for now. You can actually go through and organize them later and decide what you want to keep. I think part of the problem definitely for you T.H., for sure it would be the same for me and probably for a lot of people, you want to do your 15 minutes in the office and all of a sudden you start opening up something with pictures and you just get distracted. I would imagine, Michelle you’re the expert, that it would be okay with certain categories of things to just get them into one place and one box or something. Then that’s okay and you can go over that later.

Michelle: Correct. That’s what the zones are. The zones are the first step and that’s why, and I will bring it back to the personal trainer thing, a lot of people know what to do and what exercises to do, but are they actually going to do it if no one’s watching them? That’s where a lot of people, especially in the beginning, need to be reminded constantly, okay, we’re not doing that. They’ll open a letter and they’ll want to look at something. One of the zones that I establish with people as we start is ‘later’. You don’t need to do this with me, and you don’t frankly need to pay me to watch you read this letter or look at these pictures. You, later on, and when it’s quiet, and the kids are in bed, and you’re sitting in front of the TV, then you take your box and you can spend private time and look at it then. The distraction, like you mentioned Jessica, is a huge issue, but I’m like that redirector like nope we’re not doing that. It’s just a gentle reminder because oftentimes people are uncovering things they didn’t remember they had or they hadn’t seen for so many years.

Jessica: Exactly.

Michelle: And they want to in that moment dive right into it.

T.H.: Keeping up with a journal keeps you accountable because if I set that as my goal, at the end of the day, I have to say what made today great. I’d be like, ugh, I didn’t reach that goal so now I’ve got to carry it over tomorrow. So being accountable for your baby step goals–

Michelle: Yeah, baby steps.

T.H.: That helped me a lot. The baby steps are everything in terms of growth and everything for the three of us. We got here because it took baby steps. It really makes a difference. Otherwise, you won’t go anywhere.

Michelle: Exactly, and that’s not just for this. That’s for everything. It’s just the principle applied to this. But I just want to quickly highlight that feeling that you talked about when you said you felt lighter and you felt accomplished after you went through their stuff. We’re so bombarded. I love The Home Edit, and I think they’re fabulous. I love all their rainbowy stuff, it’s beautiful, and it’s eye candy. I love it, but it’s not real. Most of us are that’s not our life. It’s certainly not my life. And so it’s just like anything else, people get it in their head that my house has got to look like that. My pantry has got to be color-coded and beautiful and labeled. I think that’s harmful to people because then people go, I’m never going to get there. It’s a similar thing to all of the super-skinny models. I like to focus people on their feeling. How are you feeling after you spent those 15 minutes or after you spent whatever your goal was for the day? You answered that question beautifully and that’s exactly my goal with my clients. I want you to feel like you’ve done something like that and you’re accomplished. I don’t need you to feel that your pantry is ready for Architectural Digest. That’s not what I want you to do. Because that feeling, it grows and it’s empowering and then it leads to self-confidence. Then it spills over into every single realm of your life. As we’re going through a divorce, we all need that so much. We need that confidence. We need to feel like I know where my stuff is, I know where my kid’s stuff is, I’m not floundering in the morning, and I’m not making myself or my kids late. These are all byproducts of getting your home and your life organized.

Jessica: That’s like the perfect place to pause because I mean honestly, the conversation could extend for hours. We’ve all been there, and everybody out there who’s listening needs the tips and needs the help. Thank you Michelle so much for sharing all of that. There will be an expert bio page all about Michelle with all of her contact information and her website information for anybody out there who wants those types of services. Michelle, you do stuff virtually as well, correct?

Michelle: Yeah, I’ve actually been working mostly virtually recently for some reason, and I work all over the country, obviously, virtually. I am based in the Tri-state area (NY, NJ, CT) in New York, but I’m happy to work virtually. I was concerned in the beginning, but it actually works well for everybody.

Jessica: Yeah, that’s great. So we will have you back for sure with more tips, but thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Michelle: Thank you guys so much.

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