Sex Ed for Singles (Part 2) with Carli Blau | S2, Ep. 14


Welcome to another episode of the exEXPERTS DIVORCE etc… Podcast where we give you all kinds of information and tips on everything divorce. Why? We’ve lived it, so we get it! We’re T.H. & Jessica. 

Jessica: We are so excited for today’s episode of divorce etc. We have back with us, Carli Blau, Sex Therapy in the City. We had the most amazing episode with her talking about basically Sex 101 for recent divorcés. We started getting really down and dirty, no pun intended. Well, actually pun intended. We certainly couldn’t finish the conversation so we have her back today, and we’re going to dig in even a little deeper. Thank you so much for your time to come back, Carli.

Carli: Oh my gosh, of course. Thank you so much for having me, this has been an honor–pleasure, I should use that word

T.H.: Welcome back. Right, it’s the pleasure podcast.

Carli: But it’s such a pleasure to be here, and I’m really looking forward to the questions and being able to give you some honest answers. If any of you know me as Sex Doc Carli on Instagram, or you know me as a client, or you know me even just in the field, I tell it like it is. I say it the way that it is. I don’t sugarcoat anything. So if you have questions, and you want to know, granted, it’s of course somewhat my opinion, and also somewhat fact that I know, but I do my best to tell it like it is.

Jessica: Which is why we love you because the straightforwardness is so our vibe. We don’t need to be beating around the bush. Sex is such a topic, I mean, for all stages of life, but in particular, anyone who’s separated or divorced, who’s been with a partner for a significant or meaningful period of time, and now you’re starting over. The idea that you are going to be undressed in front of someone new, that someone different is going to be touching you and it may not be what you’re used to, or what you think you know about touching someone else may not be what your new partner likes. This is, I think, a hugely important topic, and as we all know, very embarrassing for a lot of people and it’s hard to talk about. I love the fact that you just open up and…

T.H.: We’re going to talk about it. So Jessica, do you remember your first kiss, your second first kiss? Like, you separated, at your first kiss?

Jessica: Yes. I remember both of my first kisses after both of my marriages. Yes.

T.H.: Did you think–I remember my first kiss after, and I was like, I think I’m a good kisser. And he’s a good kisser. I would never have analyzed that, I think to that point. But I was like, that was a good kiss. I’m good with that. Did you think that?

Jessica: I did think that. I’m laughing because you know the story of the first one.

T.H.: Yes.

Jessica: Yeah, but I also think that…do you know what I hate? I hate when I see on dating profiles when guys are saying things like you have to be a good kisser. They’re looking for someone who’s a good kisser.

Because I always think to myself, a) it’s two–

Carli: It’s relative.

T.H.: It totally takes two.

Jessica: It takes two, but also the way that you like kissing may not be the way that somebody else likes kissing. So I agree. I think that kissing, I think a lot of people think it’s so intimate, and it’s such a foreshadowing of what could be. I think it’s really disappointing when you have someone that you think is a great kisser, and you’re like, oh my god, we’re so in sync. And then further down the line, you realize you’re really not sexually compatible at all. You feel like you were misled because the kissing was so good.

Carli: Wait let’s back up on that for a second. Because okay, let’s sex therapize this for a second. First of all, kissing is totally relative, right? It’s a relative concept. What you think is good kissing is different than what I think is good kissing. Then you throw in pheromones, tongues, no tongues, lips biting, and the whole nine.

Everyone likes kissing differently.

I dated a man when I was younger and single who really–two men, three men who really didn’t like–[Laughs] How many men did I date? I’ve dated enough men that really didn’t like kissing. Whether or not it was that they didn’t like the way I kissed or not, who knows. Some men have said I’m an amazing kisser. Some men, I guess they may have thought that I wasn’t. I also knew that they weren’t very emotionally invested. I tend to see that a lack of kissing or a hold back from kissing, when you think about it if we psychoanalyze this for a second, our mouths are what we use to express ourselves a lot with our words and with our voice. And so sometimes for people who have a hard time expressing themselves, or are emotionally held back, or not vulnerable, it might be really, really scary for them to have a kiss because the kiss is so incredibly intimate. I mean, these three guys that I think of who didn’t really kiss much, were all three very emotionally, I don’t want to say stunted–

Jessica: Reserved?

Carli: Reserved, and stunted in our relationship. They did not want it to be intimate. They did not want to be vulnerable. They did not want to get invested in the relationship. It was more like fucking and then it’s over.

Jessica: It’s like Pretty Woman, remember? She’s like, there’s no kissing.

T.H.: There was no connection.

Carli: I don’t kiss. It’s exactly like Pretty Women. And the thing is it is incredibly intimate so we need to take that into consideration. Also, you can kiss someone, love kissing them, and then get to the bedroom and don’t love the bedroom. But that’s where it takes looking at the self and curiosity, a curiosity to potentially do things differently.

This is where it takes bravery that many people don’t engage in, which is to say, what it is that’s not meeting your needs. What do you need more of? Not, hey, I don’t really like that you X, Y, and Z. Turn the finger around and point it at the self. I really like it when I do dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I really like it when you touch me like this. I really like to be touched in this way. I really like these positions. I really like this being done. Give your partner an opportunity to meet there.

T.H.: I have a question too before we go further.  

Jessica: Okay, but I think part of where we left off on our last episode was about when you’re starting with someone new, and you’re open to the idea of giving some direction. I like it really soft and gentle. I like it a little faster, whatever someone else in the bedroom. I feel like there have been some times where it gets to the point where I’m like, I just can’t keep giving so much direction because now it’s almost like I’m teaching them how to take a science test. There comes a point I think at which you have to let someone…you have to just stop directing them. And if it’s not, accept the fact–

Carli: I think that’s what the word is, chemistry. Chemistry.

Jessica: Right. If you’re not–right, if you don’t have sexual chemistry in the bedroom, there’s only so much direction you can give before you’re like, you know what, it’s just not going to work.

T.H.: So I want to take a step back. How do you know what you want? You’ve been with this person for all these years, probably didn’t have much of a sex life, I’m just assuming being a totally broad statement like that, maybe not a lot of sex, maybe no intimacy, maybe no kissing. How do you discover what you actually like? How do you know? Do you just kind of play around and hook up with guys– 

Carli: Yes!

T.H.: –and see, oh, I like this, I don’t like that, and just kind of figure your shit out? Or do you do it yourself?

Carli: There is so much shame, for women, in particular, to be sexually active with more than one person or to be sexually active and explorational with men casually. And it’s very generational.

Women who are like 30 and under, generationally speaking, as of right now in the world, there’s a lot more freedom sexually for younger women. 30 and over, you’re a ‘slut’. You were slutty. You were a slut. Or you are a–

T.H.: Inappropriate, you’re a whore. 

Carli: It’s just dirty. Your vagina’s dirty.

Jessica: I don’t even know if I take it to that level, but I do feel societal pressure of 

Carli: But people do.

T.H.: People talk.

Jessica: You’re talking about people, and there is a conversation like, how many people have you slept with? Then all of a sudden, you start thinking about your body count, you’re like, I don’t think I want to have this conversation anymore.

Carli: I’ve had clients who have had to lie about their body count because partners have been like, listen, I’m not getting involved with somebody who’s had more than X, Y, and Z partners.

Jessica: Oh…

Carli: That’s nuts. You have no right to tell somebody what kind of sexual experience or activity that they’re able to engage in, especially in their past. Someone’s not worthy of dating you because they’ve been sexually explorational with X amount of people? Who the fuck are you?

Jessica: Right.

T.H.: Right.

Carli: You know what I mean?  

T.H.: So let’s talk about that, the exploring. But also, is it equally important or more important you figure it out on your own for self-pleasure? Or do you do both?

Carli: It’s equally important, right? How we feel about ourselves with a partner is really important and just as important as how we feel with ourselves. I have worked with countless women, more women than men, who have never masturbated. There are though men, guys, people, I see you – there are plenty of people that have felt like they were not able to masturbate, whether it had to do with deep-seated shame, religious beliefs, or genital mutilation regarding religious concerns, and cultural norms and expectations. I mean, I really work with all of this and there’s no right or wrong. I see you. Your experience is valid. Many people are not taught to masturbate. You know, somebody and I were just talking about this, I’m going to teach my son how to jerk off one day, and probably ask my husband to help him and teach him like what’s normal and that when you cum, you can do it in a sock. Just keep it right side in and put it in the laundry. Don’t leave it on the wall so I don’t have to soft scrub the wall. Just keep it where it’s supposed to be. And to my daughter, yes, your vagina is a magical thing, and your clitoris is great, and I’m going to teach you. My daughter is three years old, and I teach her she’s allowed to touch her vagina, but you do it in your room when no one else is with you.

Jessica: Right. Right.  

Carli: [Overlapping speech] Us as grown-ass adults, I was never taught to touch my vagina.

Jessica: Right.

T.H.: No way.

Jessica: But I think that for people who haven’t, that’s probably more of development after a divorce than just being with someone new. I feel like T.H., I think you’re right that look, I would venture to say that most people once they’re getting divorced, their sex lives have kind of gone down the drain, even if they had hot sex lives prior in their relationship. I also think that for a lot of people, I got married at 23 so that’s pretty young, and you don’t necessarily have tons of experience before that. Then you learn over the course of the next 20 years, you’re just doing the same thing.

So yes, you have the opportunity to experiment and learn new things once you’ve gotten divorced.

I think the key is to–while I’m an advocate of experimenting and not being ashamed of dating as much as you want and whatever, I also feel in order to get to a point where you’re comfortable learning new things, you really have to be in such a safe space with a partner that you know is just such a safe place to be–

T.H.: Won’t judge.

Jessica: Not even judging, just I don’t know how else to explain it other than being in a safe place where you’re able to relax enough and actually really let go. I think that a huge problem after divorce is that not being able to finish when you’re with new people because you’re so stuck in your head about all of your own self-conscious issues with your body and this is somebody new–

Carli: Or the time it takes for you to finish.

Jessica: Right. That’s, I think, a lesson that we all need. Like, how do you get out of your own head?  

Carli: Look, I think that this has to do with the chemistry piece also and safety. I remember where we left off on our last podcast talking about what are some red flags to look out for, and some things mindful of, and safety issues. And so whether you’ve slept with five people, two people, 10 people, 12 people, 35 people, 45 people, 75 people, who know, the bottom line is that every person you sleep with, they’re going to have a different sexual experience with.

T.H.: Right.

Carli: You can learn about what you like for yourself in your own body and let that influence you. But to your point, Jessica, needing to feel comfortable with someone, now, this brings me to another question and more of an answer. Should I sleep with somebody on the first date? I get asked this all the time.

Jessica: Really?

Carli: And because a lot of people are like, I tell people if you are expecting that sleeping with them is going to seal the deal, then you should not. If you internally in your own mind and body and soul sleep with someone, and then you become attached to them almost like–  

T.H.: Like, lust after them.

Carli: Like a leech. You turn on blinders, like a horse in Central Park, to everything else because you’ve slept with them so now you feel connected to them. Now all the red flags that are like shooting by like Mario Kart, you just completely bypass because you’ve already slept with them so now you feel too vulnerable. Then no, you should not be sleeping with someone right away. You need to know yourself.

If you’re someone who feels free sexually, and you are very connected to someone sexually, and you can still maintain sound judgment, even after having had sex with someone, go ahead and sleep with them on the first date, if that’s something important to you, and you want to know does this work or not. Like when I met my husband, we’d known each other on and off for years, and we had dated on and off for years and whatever. But we had our first date, we were 23–no, 24, and he showed up at my apartment and I sat on his lap and I kissed him. I said, ‘Okay, this is going to work.’ And he was like, ‘What?’ I was like, ‘Well, if I don’t like kissing you, then you’re going home tonight. This isn’t working.’ There’s the answer. I’m not going to make it uncomfortable.  

T.H.: You’re very confident though, and you’re brave enough to listen to your own voice. People, I feel are very vulnerable, have very low self-esteem, maybe coming out of a marriage, and might just take whatever they can get. And if it means that he wants to sleep with her, or she wants to sleep with him, go along with it because you’re just being vulnerable. So how do you get to a place of strength?

Carli: Therapy. And I don’t mean to self promote, but seriously–

T.H.:  No, I agree with you.  

Carli: I mean, if you are in that place if you’re listening to this right now, and that sounds like you, where you’re lacking some serious self-love and whatever comes their way you’re willing to just tolerate because you don’t know your own worth, call me or call someone that you can confide in and feel comfortable with because you deserve so much more in this world than that.

I mean, you are a valuable human being in the world with so much to offer someone who’s willing to see it. And if you don’t see that value first, then it’s going to be really hard for you to accept. They say if you don’t love yourself then it’s hard to love somebody else. And there is truth to that.

But it’s also like if you can’t love yourself, it’s deeper because if you don’t, then it feels very uncomfortable when someone else does. And people who don’t really love themselves, I feel are more drawn to dysfunction and emotional abuse and just being treated with a lack of respect because there it’s comfortable.

T.H.: You’re inviting the devil you know instead of the one–

Carli: The devil you know is better than the devil we don’t know. So if I don’t know really how to love myself when someone does come along and love me, then hypothetically speaking, I don’t really trust it. I don’t trust it. It doesn’t seem real. It doesn’t seem honest. And so I’d rather be dating an asshole than date somebody who really seems invested in me.

And okay, another great topic for us to talk about…catfishing.

T.H.: Mmm.

Jessica: I’ve never had that happen, but okay,

Carli: We need to talk about this. It’s literally just coming to my brain, but we have to talk about this. The number of women and men, my dad informed me, my dad is turning 76 tomorrow. Love the man. My parents are divorced. They’re both single, and in this view, okay, the number of men and women that are online dating profiles that are fake profiles are insane.

T.H.: Yeah.

Carli: They pick all the right photos. They have great sob stories. I cannot tell you what–okay, drumroll. How many will tell you that they need money for something with some sob story and then need money from you? Then they prey on your vulnerability coming out of a divorce. They’ll be like, I’m a widow, or I’m a widower, my kid is in school. There was a woman that I’m very close to, not a client, a friend who was dating online and met a man online. She’s divorced. She met this guy, they would talk on the phone, they had a relationship–

Jessica: But they never met in person?

Carli: They never met in person. He said he worked on an oil rig. He was planning to come to New York, they were going to go out there and make plans for a date in the next month. They were chatting, and then the date got pushed back because something happened. He had a daughter in school and he lost his wife and the daughter needed a mom figure. And so as he got closer to this woman, the woman started speaking to the daughter and they developed a relationship.

T.H.: Wow.

Carli: This woman is telling me all this and my flags, being what I do for a living, went up immediately. This person got very defensive like, that’s not the case. That’s not the case. You’re my friend, I appreciate you being my friend and looking out for me, but you have to know your boundaries. And I was like, you do you. You’re right, maybe I’m overstepping. Turned out the person was not–I respected my boundaries because it’s not a client and it was a friend, but it turned out that this person was literally a fraud, and it was a female friend that this person was talking to, pretending to be a daughter. They tried to claim that they needed a lot of money and asked this person for a bank account to be able to wire money.

T.H.: Did she give it to them?

Carli: No, thank god that she didn’t. But this is what’s going on so be mindful when you are all listening to this, and you hear a friend talking about someone that they met that isn’t in the state, that they haven’t met in person yet. You want to meet in person within the first two weeks of speaking and you want us to be in a public place where there are other people that you can signal for help if, god forbid, you need it. I don’t mean to sound like a Law and Order SVU episode here.

T.H.: No, but you need to know.

Jessica: I do think this is definitely a bigger topic. We could probably do a whole episode on the serious red flags of online dating with catfishing and things like that. I just want to circle back to the sex stuff though, because I feel like–

Carli: Sure. I had to throw that in because it literally just came to me.

Jessica: That’s really scary though also. That kind of shit is really scary. But I feel you were right, we were talking about some red flags to look for the last time when it comes to sexual compatibility. I know, obviously, it’s different for everyone. So for certain people that really love the intimacy of kissing and can kiss for a million hours, that would be, obviously, something to be able to see in the beginning. Sometimes you might kiss someone you might think, okay, well, it’s not just how I want it, but I think I could work with this. So I understand that different phases are different for different people.

But what would you in your experience as a sex therapist, what would you say are the biggest red flags for people to look out for? Because there comes a point like where they maybe don’t know, okay, look, this is where I should stop because I’m pushing it too hard, and I’m trying to force it and it’s just not going to work out.

Carli: Sure. I think that’s a great question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is when someone has any kinks, okay, or anything sexually that they’re into. Choking, spanking, slapping, cumming on your face, peeing on you, name-calling, whatever it be, whether it be positive name-calling or negative name-calling. I mean, there are things that everyone’s into. I don’t shame anybody’s kinks, or anything sexually, that someone’s into. The point is that there needs to be a conversation about it before they do it at the moment. If someone does something in the bedroom with you, and it makes you uncomfortable, speak up. You do not need to continue. You can say I’m not into that. That’s not something I’d like to do. I can’t tell you how many people I hear about that will get involved with someone and they’re like, hey, they put their hand on your throat without asking, are you okay with me choking you? That would be very scary to be involved in without being previously consented to.

Jessica: Right. But kinks aside, I just mean–I don’t want to go back to like when we were growing up, and it’s like the bases: first base, second base, whatever, but I am curious for people because this is a conversation I have with people out of marriages, who are divorced, how much effort do you put in? How many chances do you give it to someone before you can just acknowledge I just don’t think we’re sexually compatible? Because there’s also always the aspect of the first time or the first few times you’re with someone new, you still maybe don’t know them that well, you’re still getting comfortable with each other, you’re still learning each other’s bodies. It may be one or both of you may not finish, do you fake it? Are you trying to give them false hope? Or do you give it a pass and try to go out with them again a few more times? Because you’re like, okay, well, you chalk it up to we don’t know each other that well.  

T.H.: When do you stop making excuses for things not being right?

Jessica: Guide us, and guide people who–

Carli: That’s such a loaded question. I think at the end of the day, I have to look at the percentages for you, but it’s not a very large percentage of women that can finish so easily in sex, or with even oral sex, or fingering or foreplay.

Orgasms are not very easy to come by.

I was giving a sexual anatomy lesson yesterday to someone, and the clitoris is very different for every single person. All women have a different-sized clitoris. All women have different-sized vaginal lips. Men are circumcised, some aren’t circumcised. There are all different ways that people finish, right? And for women specifically, you should not be faking it, okay? If you can’t cum and you can’t finish, so fucking what? Say it. If he’s going to leave, or she’s going to leave, or they’re going to leave because they can’t make you cum? Bye. Bye. Bye. So what? So you learn together how to make you cum.

Jessica: Or just fake it if you don’t like him or her and get them out of there. Then you don’t have to worry about it anymore.

Carli: Or don’t fake it. And just feel like–

T.H.: And still kick them out.

Carli: I’m not into this, and I don’t think we’re compatible.

T.H.: Because I think you end up lying to yourself if you fake it. I feel like it’s a vicious cycle.

Jessica: It’s a bad precedent. Faking it is a bad precedent.

T.H.: Yeah, you said it. It’s not healthy for you to lie about it.

Jessica: Yeah, 100%.

T.H.: I would think that ultimately you’d be like, oh, well, that’s okay. Then you’re a new pattern for yourself.

Jessica: I also think if it’s someone you actually might like that you actually might want to see again, I think it’s such a bad precedent to fake it because now you’ve given them the impression that whatever it was that they were doing worked–

T.H.: Was right.

Jessica: That’s right.

Carli: I have to admit something here. I’m 30, I’m going to be 33 in a month. I’ve never faked it, and I’m a sex therapist. I don’t even know if I would know how to. What would faking be? Is faking where you’re–

Jessica: Breathing and moaning.

T.H.: Guys are so easy. They’re so easy. They’re like, oh really? Okay, good. Totally.

Carli: And that is what’s so mind-blowing to me that that even works.

Jessica: Let me tell you something, if you’re ever in a situation, which hopefully you won’t ever be, but the few times that I’ve been in a situation where it’s come down to faking it, to your point, it doesn’t even matter what I do. I don’t like them. I’m done anyway. It really doesn’t matter. So whether they believe it or not, or whether or not they think it seems realistic, who fucking cares. So it doesn’t really matter, I don’t think but I think it’s more that women feel pressured, especially if they’ve been with a guy a couple of times if it’s not working. It’s like there might be a lot of other things that they like about that person. I’ve been in that situation myself, and then it’s like you kind of don’t know what to do. Do you keep trying? Are you like, okay, look, we’re not sexually compatible. Or is it that you’re so caught up in your own head with all of your own psychological bullshit body issues, self-consciousness, that that’s what’s preventing you?

Carli: Or the vulnerability of being with someone new and the lack of a connection and the difficulty with the connection. I mean, there are so many things. We have to normalize for a second, but a lot of women don’t finish. A lot of women don’t finish, period. 

Jessica: That’s a shame.

Carli: I’ll disclose and say it, for me, it takes a lot to be able to have an orgasm from sex or oral sex. It takes a lot. And it has nothing to do with my attraction to my partner, right? That’s just my physiological anatomy.

T.H.: That’s the stigma that has to go away.

Carli: Correct.

T.H.: It’s not a reflection of your attraction, your chemistry, your intimacy. I think that that’s really what has to be communicated to a partner, because I think my partner’s going to be like, I’m a failure. I can’t even help her. She’s not getting me off. This is not working. But that’s not necessarily the answer. Everything else is great. 

Carli: Correct.

Jessica: Except if you are a person who is able to finish and has other with other people, then it may be a sign that there’s something lacking in that area for you and whoever that new partner is because that maybe isn’t something that’s always a problem.

Carli: So you’re both totally valid, right? And I love what both of you offer there, right, which is the piece of if you are someone that has had orgasms, and you know how to have an orgasm, and it’s about each person has their own baseline. You have to know your baseline.

Comparison is the thief of joy in every regard.

So if you’re comparing what makes you cum to what somebody else needs to cum, you’re fucked. The pun is intended, but you’re not actually because it’s not going to be what works for you. Where’s the bravery in saying to someone, hey, you know, if you’re waiting for me to finish, I’m not going to finish. I want to make you cum. And then after you finish, and they finish, you can say, hey, listen, it’s nothing personal. I have a hard time orgasming from sex. But you know what, why don’t I show you what I do? Or hey, can I grab my vibrator? Would you kiss me while I touch myself? So that you can achieve the orgasm next to someone if you need a vibrator, if you need to just use your fingers. If you’ve never had an orgasm before, we hear you, we see you. Your vagina is not broken. You’re still capable of engaging in lovemaking and intercourse and penetration, and you can still enjoy sex even if you can’t have an orgasm.

Jessica: Right.  

T.H.: Right, and if you’ve never had one then maybe that’s the time that you figure out your own how it works for you.

Carli: Right, how to?

Carli: All these pieces are right. There’s no right answer to this. It’s really, really a matter of what is it that your body needs to feel pleasure, period, and then fighting for that.

T.H.: I think the other thing which you had said last time, you touched on last time is don’t give up what’s good for you to make somebody else happy.

Carli: Correct.

T.H.: You said it in that way. I think we were talking about like getting a full Brazilian or something like that, right? You know, there are guys that are like this has all got to go. So you get it all gone. But meanwhile, you don’t even know if you wanted it all gone because you’re interested in pleasing the other person.

Carli: What if you like your vagina with a bush? 

T.H.: But don’t please the other person to sacrifice your own needs, right?

Carli: Beautifully said.

T.H.: So that was the message. And that’s the same thing here, right?  

Carli: Correct. Go ahead, Jessica.

Jessica: I was just going to say I do think that that’s a really important message because I think that with the fear that comes after being divorced and starting to be with new people, you are a little bit of like, you want to make sure that the experience is good for whoever it is that you’re with. For me personally, initially, after both divorces, you just want to be somewhere where someone thinks you’re pretty, and you’re getting that kind of validation. And it’s unfortunate that once you’ve been married and divorced, obviously, people are all different ages, but I think that I’m at a weird age where I’m a grown-up, so I’m not going to be waiting three months to have sex with someone. And I understand that men in my age group also consider sexual chemistry to be an important checkpoint so you don’t want to wait too long. We talked about that last time, wait too long, then you find out later you’re not sexually compatible. That sucks. So it’s like, I do think there’s a lot of expectation that people are going to have sex on the second date, or on the third date. I think to myself sometimes, I don’t know, we had dinner twice. Like, really? Now we’re going to take our clothes off and have sex? It’s a weird situation to be in. And I think that that fear makes you think okay, well, then I should do whatever it is to make them happy with less regard for makes me happy–

T.H.: For your own.

Jessica: Right.

Carli: I’ve worked with this in sessions many, many, many times. And it’s something that I advocate for in regard to if you’re doing that, and you’re doing something as a means to an end, you’re disassociating from the actual experience you’re in. Okay, I’ll repeat that. So if you’re doing something as a means to an end, so you’re having sex because you want them to like you, you are not really invested in the sex. You’re investing in what you want it to result in–

Jessica: Represent. Yes.

Carli: And represent. And that is so inauthentic. I find that to be so dangerous because that really leaves you in an opportunity to connect on the wrong level and for the wrong reason. It’s not authentically who you are as a woman or man.

T.H.: And that applies to everything. I mean, not being present, you miss what’s happening right in front of you.

Carli: But so many people do it.

T.H.: If you’re thinking ten steps ahead, you’ve lost ten minutes of your life thinking about what’s going to happen next, instead of what’s happening right now.

Jessica: Plus, it’s literally the conversation that you and I had, T.H., last week about looking for love in all the wrong places, having sex with people because you yearn for a connection, or you yearn for that closeness or that tenderness. And it’s like, you’re getting it because, after sex, that’s kind of what comes, but you don’t necessarily feel comfortable enough for them to even be having the sex, but you’re looking for what comes later. I think that’s a big risk for people out of divorce. They yearn for that someone to hold them–

Carli: Connection.

Jessica: Yeah, someone to hold them in bed while they’re falling asleep. I think that it gets mixed up a lot with the whole sex equation. People are having sex because they’re not even necessarily looking for sex. They’re looking for the connection, which they’re not going to get, they think unless they have the sex.

T.H.: Which isn’t even authentic if you’re not even present for the sex.

Jessica: Right. Totally.

T.H.: It’s just some guy holding you.

Carli: Right. Or he’s holding you in the moment–like there’s the other thing. Then there’s also this piece of he’s holding you in the moment, or she’s holding you in the moment because yes, the sex was great, or the foreplay was great, or the experience was great, and then it’s hot and heavy and emotionally, you feel connected in that moment, but then you keep talking and something changes. Maybe you get unattracted to that person, maybe you were dating two people at the same time and you like somebody else more. We live in a space in our world that is very polarized. We like to think of things as either good or bad, safe or unsafe, right or wrong. It’s a very black and white world we live in, especially in today’s day in society. I mean, things have gotten so polarized, it’s frightening. I bring my clients back to the gray. Nothing is black and white in reality. It’s your perspective, right? How do you see things is going to be based on your experience in the world, who you are, where you come from, how you’ve been raised, what your previous relationship was like, or what your previous sex was like? Some people go from having someone who’s really sexually active all the time–I’ve had plenty of times couples that end up getting divorced who fuck every single week. They don’t look each other in the face. They turn around, bada bing bada boom, over. You put the money on the nightstand, call it a day, and buy me Chanel shoes. That’s it, like shut your mouth, and that’s it. This shit happens every freaking day.? Or I blew you so leave me alone.

T.H.: I know couples who have been divorced a long time and still sleep with each other, and use each other as a date, like, I need a date for tonight, will you come with me? Will you come with me? So they go with each other and then they have sex. But they’re miserable married, but they serve each other’s purpose of sex and being a fill-in if someone’s missing.

Carli: Yep.

T.H.: And how the hell do you move on from that? That’s a whole other drama.

Jessica: That’s a whole other conversation.  

Carli: And wait T.H., that’s also assuming that they want to move on from that. What if we normalized–

T.H.: Well, these people do not want to move on from it. They’re so toxic.

Carli: But what if it’s not toxic?

T.H.: No, but the way they are with each other is so disrespectful and rude, and then they go and have sex.

Carli: Well, then that’s a different situation.

T.H.: Their relationship as two people is terrible, but they seem to, whatever it is, it’s not–

Jessica: That’s their foreplay.

Carli: This is why I love my job. T.H., this is I love my job because of what you just said, your perception of it is based on who you are, and where you come from, and your experience in the world. For them, when people are drawn to toxicity, it’s because they grew up in toxicity. Being loved and being kind and being in a safe environment is not safe, even if it is in reality. To them, it doesn’t feel real. They’d rather be in something toxic. So fucking each other and–

T.H.: It’s easier.

Carli: It’s not even just easier. It’s comfortable.

Jessica: Right, it’s what they know.

T.H.: Right, because again, the devil you know.

Carli: Bingo.

Jessica: Okay, ladies, we’ve got to cut it off here. I know we have so much more to talk–

Carli: No!

Jessica: No, seriously, we have so much more to talk about, and we’re going to, but for now, everybody listening, you have to go to the site It’s all spelled out Check out Carli’s exEXPERTS page. It has all of her information, how to get in touch with her, her website, and all of her socials because this is definitely someone you want to be continuing the conversation–

T.H.: She’s a rockstar, you can tell.

Carli: Thank you.

Jessica: That’s right, and having and engaging with her. So check all of that out. We will have her again back soon. Thank you, Carli.

Carli: Thank you so much. Thank you for that, and thanks for having me. I love having conversations with bright minds like yours. This is amazing.

Jessica: And those interested in sex, just saying.

Carli: Yeah, that too. That doesn’t hurt.

T.H.: Everybody’s interested in sex.

Carli: Correct.

Goodbye: For everyone out there listening, if you know anyone at all who would benefit from what we talked about today please share this episode and everything exExperts.  Be sure and click to subscribe to the Podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts and please follow us on social media @exEXPERTS Divorce etc… on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube and our website at  Thanks for listening!

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